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If/when do you think BEVs will be 50% of annual new car sales in China, the US and EU?


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No advantage to having battery plant, Ford says

DETROIT — Ford's broad investment in electrification includes money for a slew of hybrids, plug-ins and battery-electric vehicles, but nothing in one area where its biggest rivals are spending billions: battery production.

Even with the Mustang Mach-E coming this year and the F-150 EV and Transit EV expected in 2022, Ford executives say they are content to source batteries from suppliers instead of making their own.

It's the latest fork in the road for automakers as they steer toward an electric future.

Tesla poured $5 billion into the Nevada Gigafactory that churns out lithium ion batteries for its entire lineup in partnership with Panasonic. General Motors this year started construction on an Ohio plant to make its proprietary Ultium battery cells through a $2.3 billion joint venture with LG Chem. Volkswagen and Daimler also are investing in battery facilities.

Ford executives insist their plan allows for more flexibility if EV demand falters or a chemistry breakthrough makes today's battery technology obsolete. They also note that suppliers have boosted capacity to meet the wave of EVs arriving in coming years.

"The supply chain has ramped up since Elon [Musk] built his Gigafactory, and so there's plenty there that does not warrant us to migrate our capital into owning our own factory," outgoing Ford CEO Jim Hackett said on the company's second-quarter earnings call. "There's no advantage in the ownership in terms of cost or sourcing." Varied strategies

The divergent strategies have huge financial implications. Tesla's stock jumped last week after CEO Musk hinted that the automaker would reveal improved battery capacity in September. Wall Street analysts have spoken glowingly about GM's Ultium technology and its potential to support a spinoff EV business.

Sam Abuelsamid, a principal e-mobility analyst at Guidehouse Insights, says both strategies have advantages.

"I don't know that there is a definitively better path," he said. "If you source your own, you'll have a guaranteed supply, but you're potentially stuck with that supply if you can't sell them. If you source from suppliers, if there's a technology breakthrough, you've left yourself flexibility and haven't made a big investment in something that may be prematurely obsolete. It's a bit of a crapshoot either way you go."

Ford's strategy is largely dictated by the size of its EV ambitions.

"They're committing heavily to electrification, but not all battery EVs," Abuelsamid said. "They're doing a lot still with hybrids and plug-in hybrids."

GM, meanwhile, envisions a zero- emission future and plans to make Cadillac an EV-only brand by the next decade. ‘Insufficient scale'

Hau Thai-Tang, Ford's head of product development and purchasing, said this month on an analyst call that Ford would need to produce 100,000 to 150,000 EVs annually for its own battery plant to make sense.

"We don't have that volume initially to justify that capital expenditure," he said, adding that local content requirements in North America and China further complicate the issue. "There's insufficient scale for any one OEM, other than somebody who's a full-line battery-electric manufacturer like Tesla, to justify that spending."

He left open the possibility that Ford could change its mind as its EV portfolio expands.

A Trefis analysis from January concluded that Tesla's Gigafactory is paying dividends. The study, published in Forbes, estimated the automaker's battery costs fell 45 percent from 2016 to 2019, an average drop of $7,000 per vehicle.

But Ford argues that its reliance on suppliers also could reduce prices.

"It gives us the ability to access the latest technology and innovation across multiple suppliers," Thai-Tang said. "So I know exactly what the state of the art is from the Korean suppliers, the Japanese suppliers, the Chinese suppliers, and I'm able to compare notes across them maybe better than they can. And then, of course, we have the competitive tension with dealing with multiple suppliers, which allows us to drive the cost down."

Despite its insistence that the supply base is prepared, Ford has said tight battery supplies would limit the upcoming Mustang Mach-E to 50,000 vehicles globally in its first year of production.

Still, the company is hesitant to lock itself into a certain type of battery, with Thai-Tang citing Toyota Motor Corp. as a cautionary tale.

"They invested to vertically integrate nickel-metal hydride batteries for their hybrids," he said. "And after spending over $1 billion to do that, the technology shifted to lithium ion, and they were among the last to switch over. I don't want to put Ford in that position."

 
The second magic figure I'd want is 470km (292 miles). That would allow me to travel from the Netherlands to our second home South West of London on one charge. The problem there would be having nowhere to charge it back up, as it's a flat. I wouldn't fancy taking one hour of my time to go and charge the car somewhere the next day.

And that is the glass ceiling for BEV ownership throughout Europe, the majority of Europeans live in homes without off street parking, they have nowhere to charge at home. I don't see people wanting to spend additional time at a public charger often a long way from home.
 
@David Brent, you might find this interesting - Harry took a Model 3 Performance for a long trip in UK. He did 336 miles (+ 50 miles leftover) with a 20 min stop. And it cost him 18 pounds (vs 60+ it would have in a 30 mpg car as per him).

Good review in general, agree with him on almost every count (including the criticisms), which was surprising cause I expected a very luddite pov from a petrolhead like him.

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Interesting.
Full disclosure: I am a skeptic of EV.
I know from my experience with lithium batteries is that their efficiency decreases with time and worst of it all in cold temperatures. I have been working with lithium batteries for over 20 years and trust me it isn't pretty.
So first of all the price of fuel is heavily levied with circa 45% tax here where I live. Current levies that we pay on electricity will not be enough to offset the loss of revenue that the governments will witness with the elimination of fossil fuel based mode of transportation. Once governments notice this, they will do what they do best and that is increase the taxes on electricity to cover the shortfall.
The final thing I often ask myself is the cost of my time? To fill up my truck takes me about 5 minutes for 120 litres and that is good for 1000+km during summer, so for me what will be the cost of my time to recharge my battery for an equivalent 1000km range?

Thanks for sharing the video, I really enjoyed it.
 
Thanks for sharing the video, I really enjoyed it.

And here's Harry's latest video, which completely on-topic, he talks about why he's switched from a full-electric family car to the X5 PHEV.

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@Sunny I haven't watched that Tesla review yet, and neither have I watched this video, but I really will once I get a chance. I'm very interested in this.
 
I have been working with lithium batteries for over 20 years and trust me it isn't pretty.

Ha, coincidence (and orry to be blunt), but I have been working with people for 20 years. And in my experience, never trust people who just say "trust me".

I trust data. And I didn't see any from you. But I have seen enough real word data on battery capacity depreciation in Teslas like this - Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data - Electrek or A look at Tesla battery degradation and replacement after 400,000 miles - Electrek.

1599092568316.png 1599092897580.png


Thanks for sharing the video, I really enjoyed it.
You are welcome.

And here's Harry's latest video, which completely on-topic, he talks about why he's switched from a full-electric family car to the X5 PHEV.

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Yea, just saw that. Agree with most (not all) the points he makes., But he makes a good point on why Tesla is the only real BEV game in town for now cause of the charging network. It was also one of the reasons that stopped me from getting the Taycan despite being it being a fantastic car.
 
And here's Harry's latest video, which completely on-topic, he talks about why he's switched from a full-electric family car to the X5 PHEV.

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@Sunny I haven't watched that Tesla review yet, and neither have I watched this video, but I really will once I get a chance. I'm very interested in this.
Excellent. That makes more sense to me.
 
But those are rather theoretical disadvantages. In reality, the 330e is fast and nimble enough for 99% of people.

I certainly think there is a market for a 330e but its more of a niche market than it is a sizeable one. The 330e in many ways reminds me of the Blackberry Priv:

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• It still had a physical keyboard for the individuals that were reluctant to fully embrace touch screens
• It still had a touch screen for those that wanted a blend of the old and the new.
• It ran Android and gave the flexibility of being able to BB apps.

Theoretically, the phone above is faultless just like the 330e, the Swiss army phone that did everything for 99% of the people yet it disappeared into irrelevance. Hmmm wonder why?



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I certainly think there is a market for a 330e but its more of a niche market than it is a sizeable one.

Ok. But the UK data you provide, say the opposite.
3rd place.
50% more sales volume than a pure electric I-Pace ... which is an SUV (everybodies darling).
Only 10% less than the no. 2, which is what? Half its price?

To convince me, that 330e is a fail in sales, you have to show me other data for sure. :p
 
People talk of the stupidity of carrying around the engine and not using it very much, so it's just dead weight in the car. But how is that any different to a full BEV capable of 400km on one charge, but only ever using 10% of the capacity every time you drive it? The unused battery capacity is dead weight too.

95% of my driving is 6km to and from work, and then once per week a round trip of 30-40km to IKEA and back. This is satisfied completely by the battery part.
5% of my driving is 1,500km round trips across Europe. This is where the ICE comes in.

Thanks for sharing. There are use case for hybrids, BEVs, petrol and even diesels depending on how a car will be used.
 
Phone comparisons again?

Anyway... current situation in the UK.

1599474847324.webp


Hybrids of the non-plug-in variety out pacing BEV's and PHEV's. Just supposition, but perhaps charging logistics are still a sticking point for potential buyers.
 
I used to think that, but I've changed my mind after test driving a BMW 330e sedan (G20), and looking on paper how it would suit my needs. I actually think it's the BEST of both worlds.

People talk of the stupidity of carrying around the engine and not using it very much, so it's just dead weight in the car. But how is that any different to a full BEV capable of 400km on one charge, but only ever using 10% of the capacity every time you drive it? The unused battery capacity is dead weight too.

95% of my driving is 6km to and from work, and then once per week a round trip of 30-40km to IKEA and back. This is satisfied completely by the battery part.
5% of my driving is 1,500km round trips across Europe. This is where the ICE comes in.

Having both types of propulsion means I can use the most suitable depending on the journey.

I know you won't like this question but if you only live 6km from work, why don't you ride a bike to and from? 6km on a flat road is 15 minutes ride. The Netherlands is dead flat, there's more than likely a grade separated cycle way for you to use, driving a car that distance is a bit silly.
 
I know you won't like this question but if you only live 6km from work, why don't you ride a bike to and from? 6km on a flat road is 15 minutes ride. The Netherlands is dead flat, there's more than likely a grade separated cycle way for you to use, driving a car that distance is a bit silly.
Come now, why would he cycle when he can walk? Sure, it's even slower, less convenient and more tiring then cycling, but hey, it's better than crawling (over broken glass... with your fly unzipped)!
 
Anyway... current situation in the UK.

1599474847324.webp


Hybrids of the non-plug-in variety out pacing BEV's and PHEV's. Just supposition, but perhaps charging logistics are still a sticking point for potential buyers.

In the table you posted, I see BEVs with the biggest % gain (157%), so curious what makes you say "Hybrids of the non-plug-in variety out pacing BEV's"?

Having said that, even if there is a statistic out there showing hybrids are outpacing BEVs, you have to temper it with few points -

1. Availability of BEVs, especially competent ones (with a competent charging network) in various segments - If someone wants to buy an SUV and there are no competent BEV SUVs, it is normal they will buy a hybrid. That doesn't give you much insight into how demand for BEV vs hybrids compare, just supply. Better insight would be would be looking specifically at a segment where competent BEVs are available.

2. Number of different BEV models available vs other types - Even in a segment where a competent BEV is available, it is usually 1 BEV model vs 10 models of other types. It is to be expected the 10 combined will outsell the 1 BEV model. Again, a better insight into how demand for BEVs vs other types compare would be to compare top BEV to the top selling model of other type to make it 1 vs 1.

3. I can see hybrids and BEVs growing independently initially where both are just cannibalizing ICEV sales.

Phone comparisons again?

It is not unique to phones. When faced with disruptive technology, people will try patching it with their previous expertise - digital-film hybrid cameras, digital typewriters, even early cars were just horseless carriages, but none of them lasted.

To convince me, that 330e is a fail in sales, you have to show me other data for sure. :p

I don't know what your definition of "fail" is - but a model 3 sold more than 3x 330e as per the same graph. I don't know what subjective term you would use to describe that? :)


All I know is that I'd be half dead if I tried to cycle up the hill near me. :oops:

What doesn't make you "full dead" makes you stronger, right? :)
 
Ok, so to climb this 30m high bump buy an e-bike.

Why are you telling me how I should get to work in a thread about BEV technology in cars? I suggest you educate yourself on the geography of the Netherlands if you think there are no hilly parts.


The Vaalserberg is a hill with a height of 322.4 metres (1,058 ft)[1] above NAP and is the highest point in mainland Netherlands. The Vaalserberg is located in the province of Limburg, at the south-easternmost edge of the country, near the town of Vaals (after which it is named).
 
So it's a small hill, is it the hill you have to ride up? If it is I get your point, if it isn't then its irrelevant. Most of it also appear to be in two Germany and Belgium.

An e-bike is a BEV of sorts.

It just appears rather pointless to use a car to drive 6km to work if you ask me that laziness. Using it as justification to buy a hybrid vehicle is a bit of a laugh.
 
So it's a small hill, is it the hill you have to ride up? If it is I get your point, if it isn't then its irrelevant. Most of it also appear to be in two Germany and Belgium.

An e-bike is a BEV of sorts.

It just appears rather pointless to use a car to drive 6km to work if you ask me that laziness. Using it as justification to buy a hybrid vehicle is a bit of a laugh.
What the hell is going on here? Are you trolling? Why are you on this forum? No, driving a car 6km to work is not pointless, it's the best way to get there. Putting aside one might need to go change clothes depending on circumstances, there is like 100 other reasons for why you would want to use a car. It's faster, way more comfortable, it can be done in any weather, you might want to or need to use the car to run other errands after, or you might get a call during work and having to go pick someone up. Who knows. But that's beside the point anyway. You would use the car because you like driving, surely? Because you like cars and you like driving them? Like, ok, use a bike if you want some exercise (or just if you want to). But as far as using a car being pointless and lazy... no, no, no and NO.
 

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