Hot! BEV Technology

[kiki voinea]

I honestly don't understand so many of GCF users.

"EVs will not be good until they will have 2000km range and 0-100% in 2 minutes"

WITHOUT INVESTMENTS of course it will not be good. But with increasing demand , EVs will be better and better . Solid state batteries are just a step close to reality .

The only thing that it's missing to get solid state batteries to mass production is the cost .

Why is the cost a problem? Because they still try to figure it out to mass produce it with low cost.

We will get there with investments ! I am ready to be a part of that journey , and pave the way for others to get into EVs by buying an EV right now and keep investments on trail.

More EV buyers , better cars we will have. Simple

Just as iPhone 2G was pretty meh when it came out , it changed the industry. Step by step.

Remember MP3 players? Remember when people said that "the quality of a proper MP3 player cannot be matched by an smartphone"? Remember wired headphones? Airpods changed the industry.

Same with EVs. More users . Better price. Better tech

 

[dalab]

I honestly don't understand so many of GCF users.

It's in the books along with "What do women want?"

 

[Matski]

Fast charging at rapid chargers has been largely irrelevant to our EV experience to date, we charge at home, on the few road trips I've been on charging coincides with wee, pooh and food breaks. If you want to make EV ownership difficult you can, but it's not, it's easy.

You have to appreciate that you're saying that as someone who can charge at home. The baseline suitability of an EV in terms of range and refuelling does not match that of a combustion engine car, and that's pretty much a fact in most cases. Yes there are cases where that's not actually going to be a problem, and yes there are ways of mitigating certain factors, but if you need those mitigating things - such as a house with dedicated off-road parking, and a potentially expensive, or specific vehicle to get better charging performance - then you cannot claim that somebody that doesn't have those things is 'making it difficult', you're simply choosing to overlook you're in a position to make it easy.

I honestly don't understand so many of GCF users.

"EVs will not be good until they will have 2000km range and 0-100% in 2 minutes"

I mean, which GCF users are actually saying that?

Having said that... as a benchmark, my old 120d achieved 1000km range which it could top up 0-100% in 61 seconds at pretty much every refuelling point... Why is it actually wrong to expect modern EVs to be able to match either of those specs?

... and I really hope the answer isn't just, 'you don't need them because you can charge at home!'.

 

[J.E]

I honestly don't understand so many of GCF users.

I don't understand them either. I tell 'em that money talks and combustion cars make more money than BEVs and yet they struggle to understand the simple concept that money talks and bullshit walks.

 

[Centurion]

You have to appreciate that you're saying that as someone who can charge at home. The baseline suitability of an EV in terms of range and refuelling does not match that of a combustion engine car, and that's pretty much a fact in most cases. Yes there are cases where that's not actually going to be a problem, and yes there are ways of mitigating certain factors, but if you need those mitigating things - such as a house with dedicated off-road parking, and a potentially expensive, or specific vehicle to get better charging performance - then you cannot claim that somebody that doesn't have those things is 'making it difficult', you're simply choosing to overlook you're in a position to make it easy.

It's like the executive class who say working-from-home is great. Yes it is if you have a home office and a garden. Not fun if you are two adults with three young children in a small apartment.

 

[Mick Briesgau]

Having said that... as a benchmark, my old 120d achieved 1000km range which it could top up 0-100% in 61 seconds at pretty much every refuelling point... Why is it actually wrong to expect modern EVs to be able to match either of those specs?

Agreed and not bad, out of such a comparatively small tank. As another benchmark for another class of cars, my S 350d (W223) achieves a 1.500 km range, easily. After filling it up in no-time, not seldom the on board computer tells me I can drive 1.750+ km.
I expect the same from a future EV S class.

 

[Sunny]

The EV revolution is only going to happen when fully charging a battery becomes a five minute job at most.

Having said that... as a benchmark, my old 120d achieved 1000km range which it could top up 0-100% in 61 seconds at pretty much every refuelling point... Why is it actually wrong to expect modern EVs to be able to match either of those specs?

Because things don't magically go from nothing to ideal instantaneously. Gas cars didn't either. Early gas cars, you had to get kerosene from grocery stores or pharmacies in containers. This is what early gas pumps looked like -

You had to hand crank them, for the first few decades of motorcars, that is, if you were lucky to stay anywhere close to one.

If we waited for things to be perfect from the day one, we would still be in horse carriages. Or even a f#cking cave. And I know who here still would be. Thankfully, for the rest, they don't hold much sway over humanity's course.

 

[kiki voinea]

You have to appreciate that you're saying that as someone who can charge at home. The baseline suitability of an EV in terms of range and refuelling does not match that of a combustion engine car, and that's pretty much a fact in most cases. Yes there are cases where that's not actually going to be a problem, and yes there are ways of mitigating certain factors, but if you need those mitigating things - such as a house with dedicated off-road parking, and a potentially expensive, or specific vehicle to get better charging performance - then you cannot claim that somebody that doesn't have those things is 'making it difficult', you're simply choosing to overlook you're in a position to make it easy.



I mean, which GCF users are actually saying that?

Having said that... as a benchmark, my old 120d achieved 1000km range which it could top up 0-100% in 61 seconds at pretty much every refuelling point... Why is it actually wrong to expect modern EVs to be able to match either of those specs?

... and I really hope the answer isn't just, 'you don't need them because you can charge at home!'.

Why the heck would anybody need +1500 range when the medium daily usage is well under 30km worldwide ?

I get it . You need it . I don't . Medium people don't.

You are the exception. Not us

But again , maybe you missed my point : I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS GREAT RIGHT NOW !

I am saying that you and others should have some patience , and us people , who only need a daily range of 20-40 km at most , drive this crap and push the market to higher investments !

Get it?

 

[Big Sam]

Having said that... as a benchmark, my old 120d achieved 1000km range which it could top up 0-100% in 61 seconds at pretty much every refuelling point... Why is it actually wrong to expect modern EVs to be able to match either of those specs?

Not saying it's wrong to expect that. I just want to tell you how it's been from my perspective, introducing a BEV into my life:

As someone who's been doing long distance driving on a regular basis for over 20 years, the need to stop and charge every two or three hours compared with getting in a car and driving for 9 hours nonstop was a major barrier to switching to electric. However, in reality it's been a complete non-issue. You just adapt. Indeed, it's even made long journeys more fun, in that I have a charging strategy which I sometimes have to adapt depending on circumstances. It's been a big surprise just how small an issue it's been. Sure, a few weeks ago when I had the G60 520d, it was a relief knowing I could get back home from Hamburg to southern Holland without stopping, but it didn't make me want to stop driving a BEV. I drive from Holland to Yorkshire every month and my first choice is always my BEV. The downsides of having to stop more are simply not big enough to make me want to drive something else.

What I certainly DON'T miss is having to go to the fuel pumps and deal with dirty, fuel-contaminated nozzles, and pools of diesel where you're standing.

It's been a major eye-opener just how much of a non-issue the range of a BEV is. In fact, the most important factor is how quickly you can charge, not how much range you get.

Just my 2ps worth...

 

[Matski]

Why the heck would anybody need +1500 range when the medium daily usage is well under 30km worldwide ?

I get it . You need it . I don't . Medium people don't.

You are the exception. Not us

I may well be exceptional...

... but not in this case.

Between having a non-functioning engine block and a non-functioning left knee, I've driven the sum total of ~440 miles in the last 12 months. I'm very much aware of what my needs would be in terms of range under normal circumstances, and I'm very much aware that it reflects the majority of the population here in the UK, I posted as such 7 years ago.

If you're happy to disregard weaker areas of EV performance because people don't 'need them', I don't disagree, I just hope this form of acceptance stands across the board, both ways.

It's been a major eye-opener just how much of a non-issue the range of a BEV is. In fact, the most important factor is how quickly you can charge, not how much range you get.

I understand I'm telling you what you probably already appreciate - but driving a ~£100k EV that you can subsequently 'ultra rapid' charge along major routes (E40, M20, M25, A1M?), on a journey long enough for the fuel savings to really accumulate, may mitigate some of the potential issues for you - but it doesn't really address the underlying issues, and that was the point being made in my response to KiwiRob.

I don't really see anyone asking for 2000km range and full recharging in two minutes as Kiki suggested, but I don't think it's unreasonable that people expect access to at least some of the convenience they had whilst being expected to switch to EV, without having to buy something like a Taycan, or own a house with dedicated off-road parking to get any practical benefit.

The overwhelming proliferation of the combustion engine car (for better or worse) demonstrates the systemic suitability of the technology, infrastructure and availability. Currently it seems more that EVs can only demonstrate that suitability anecdotally (when considering the entire car market), which is something that needs to change

Because things don't magically go from nothing to ideal instantaneously.

Porsche, 1898.
5hp, 21mph, 50 mile range.

Porsche, 2024.
~880hp, 162mph, ~300 mile range.

Nobody is expecting 'nothing to ideal instantaneously', it's already been 125 years. What people may more reasonably be expecting, is that the solution being mandated and regulated in by the government isn't functionally worse.

Battery technology has had just as much time to evolve as the combustion engine, and indeed it has evolved. Energy density is very clearly far better than it ever has been in any practical application, and it's still only a fraction of what you get from Petrol. I'm sure that improvements will come, but I remain sceptical that comparable performance in this practical regard will be as readily available.

Thankfully, for the rest, they don't hold much sway over humanity's course.

Yeah 'cus what humanity needs is just a different kind of car.

 

[Sunny]

Nobody is expecting 'nothing to ideal instantaneously', it's already been 125 years.

That is your serious argument? Cause there were a few evs at the turn of the last century, so they should be on par with what was the defacto mode of personal transportation for last century?
Any serious observer would acknowledge serious effort into EV development for personal transportation has only been happening last decade or so (credit to breakthrough in li battery production, thanks to mobile devices). If you can't acknowledge that simple fact, you are just arguing for the sake of it, and I have better use of my time than engage with such idiocy.

Yeah 'cus what humanity needs is just a different kind of car.

No one said that is the only thing that humanity needs. And unless you are a science denier, a cleaner way of getting around, is definitely one of it.
But it is not about any one particular change. It is change in general, there are always folks bitterly whining about any change. I think cause, they are ultimately scared of being left behind. So what is it about EVs you fear so much? I don't expect an honest answer. But you should try be honest to yourself.

...whilst being expected to switch to EV,

Who is expecting you to switch to EV? If it doesn't work for you, don't buy one. Heck, it works great for me and I am still not buying one cause there are ICEV I desire more. So why this irrational fear?

 

[kiki voinea]

"Why spend 1-2 hours on this internet thing to download a photo or a song when I can go to a store and buy it instantly"

"Why bother buying a digital camera . They are all crap. Film is way better"

"Automatic gearbox is so laggy , slow , and breaks fast"

- Every EV hater back in the days

 

[Sunny]

"Why spend 1-2 hours on this internet thing to download a photo or a song when I can go to a store and buy it instantly"

- Every EV hater back in the days

The argument is more like - "Some of us have slow internet, so it doesn't work for us. So we fear being left behind, So there should be no downloadable music for anyone".

 

[KiwiRob]

You have to appreciate that you're saying that as someone who can charge at home. The baseline suitability of an EV in terms of range and refuelling does not match that of a combustion engine car, and that's pretty much a fact in most cases. Yes there are cases where that's not actually going to be a problem, and yes there are ways of mitigating certain factors, but if you need those mitigating things - such as a house with dedicated off-road parking, and a potentially expensive, or specific vehicle to get better charging performance - then you cannot claim that somebody that doesn't have those things is 'making it difficult', you're simply choosing to overlook you're in a position to make it easy.

The UK with it's large number of terrace houses without any form off street parking is the exception rather than the norm. Terrace houses fell out of favour after WW1 and were replaced with semi detached housing, new terraces haven't been mass built in generations.

In NZ, Australia, US, Scandinavia and many other countries a single family dwelling on a plot of land is the norm. In Norway most apartments also come with parking, the government has mandated that people living in apartments should have access to charging facilities in those apartments. residents can install their own charger at your parking space or the building will have shared chargers for all the residents.

 

[klier]

You have to appreciate that you're saying that as someone who can charge at home.

Here in my country 90% won't be able to charge at home, simply because they do not have a driveway or private parking space.

I think in western EU there's only like 25% max who can do that.......and those people tend to live in more rural areas where there's little to no charging to begin with. In the cities/urban areas??? LOL

The argument is more like - "Some of us have slow internet, so it doesn't work for us. So we fear being left behind, So there should be no downloadable music for anyone".

Downloadable music? You're behind the times Sunny haha

 

[sl123]

A friend of mine and his family drove back from their winter vacation six weeks ago. With 2 cars starting at the same time using the same route: 1x BEV, 1x Diesel. BEV travel time 10.5 hours, Diesel 6 hours. Why: Charging station defective, not directly on the route, charging power lower than expected, etc.
He no longer wants a BEV.

 

[Big Sam]

A friend of mine and his family drove back from their winter vacation six weeks ago. With 2 cars starting at the same time using the same route: 1x BEV, 1x Diesel. BEV travel time 10.5 hours, Diesel 6 hours. Why: Charging station defective, not directly on the route, charging power lower than expected, etc.
He no longer wants a BEV.

I'm not suggesting your friend fits into this category, but there are a lot of people out there who are utterly clueless when it comes to EVs/charging/journey planning generally. I know because I've met a lot of them while charging my own car. It's not entirely their fault, as the industry should educate them, but it also is their responsibility to learn about their car. Some simply cannot be bothered because it's apparently too much effort, so they end up wasting time charging for too long, going to more expensive chargers, worrying about range when there's no need, and plugging into ultra-rapid chargers "because they're quicker", not appreciating that their car also needs to be able to take the power.

I understand I'm telling you what you probably already appreciate - but driving a ~£100k EV that you can subsequently 'ultra rapid' charge along major routes (E40, M20, M25, A1M?), on a journey long enough for the fuel savings to really accumulate, may mitigate some of the potential issues for you - but it doesn't really address the underlying issues, and that was the point being made in my response to KiwiRob.

Yeah, I appreciate I've got it better than most. Although, the Tesla Model 3 in the NL is an absolute bargain compared with its nearest rivals, and it's also the best EV in terms of purely charging and efficiency, so you don't have to buy a Porsche.

 

[KiwiRob]

Here in my country 90% won't be able to charge at home, simply because they do not have a driveway or private parking space.

This statistic shows the distribution of housing in the Netherlands by type of dwelling, as of 2016. In that year 58.4 percent of the population of the Netherlands lived in detached houses and a further 17.8 percent occupied semi-detached houses.

It can't be much different in 2023.

 

[KiwiRob]

A friend of mine and his family drove back from their winter vacation six weeks ago. With 2 cars starting at the same time using the same route: 1x BEV, 1x Diesel. BEV travel time 10.5 hours, Diesel 6 hours. Why: Charging station defective, not directly on the route, charging power lower than expected, etc.
He no longer wants a BEV.

where does you friend lives is important in this discussion, if he live in Northern or Central Europe this is highly unlikely, if he lives in Scandinavia this is damn near impossible, if he lives in Norway I would call him a liar.

So far in my EV ownership I haven't come across a single defective charger, I did come across an Ionity station that was offline, but right bestide that Ionity station was a Tesla Supercharger station and an E.on station so I was ok.

 

[sl123]

where does you friend lives is important in this discussion, if he live in Northern or Central Europe this is highly unlikely, if he lives in Scandinavia this is damn near impossible, if he lives in Norway I would call him a liar.

So far in my EV ownership I haven't come across a single defective charger, I did come across an Ionity station that was offline, but right bestide that Ionity station was a Tesla Supercharger station and an E.on station so I was ok.

You are right. The country is important. He lives in Germany