M5 Autocar: AWD F10 M5 at the ready

[330CIZHP]

x 10000

I think it is a good move by BMW because "M" is no longer what it used to be

• NA M bespoke engine- gone.
• No M SUV- gone
• Lightweight vehicles- not happening
• No AWD "M" cars- going! going!!..........................gone!!!!

In essence "M" is just like everyone else.

 

[mini_cooper4]

No, M is gone and that's not an opinion.
They are not building engines now, they are only doing tune ups on existing ones.
Even suspension is now more like in the standard version of the car(X6M) and not an unique one.

So guys, buy e90/92/93 M3s they will be freakin' expensive in few years from now and there is a reason for that

There is a good side of things because I will be buying only standard BMWs and not Ms from now on(better for my pocket). Before it was like buying a whole different car(3er vs M3) but now it won't be worth the extra money you pay for it.
No, I don't need the fancy 300-400-500-600hp mode buttons

 

[EnI]

In essence "M" is just like everyone else.

In essence M is still what it is. But today it's more. For those who want more. For others who are satisfied with the original M - it's still available.

Lightweight Ms? If the standard platform is heavy, the M engineers can't do miracle for that price. Replacing steel parts with alu or even CFRP would push the price way higher. Or the car would be selling with thin profit margins.

But it's sure the raw M from 80s or even 90s is gone! Reason: cost cutting. Not only BMW, but others are also doing it. Main resources are @ hybrid & electric powertrains right now. Or even hydrogen. The focus is elsewhere where it was 20, 30 years ago. There are different times today. Not just @ M, BMW.

Mind that right now BMW i gets all prime resources, not the BMW M. Not anymore!

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Makes sense when you consider how important x-Drive sales have now become for BMW sedans and coupes. Not sure what thread I read it in, but about 50% of sales for BMW sedans in North America was for x-Drive variants. So if you want to sell more cars, especially the dangerously powerful M5, then AWD makes sense.

IMO, there shouldn't be any complaints regarding an AWD version of the M5 or any M for that matter, as long as a RWD version is also available. We know M has had to abandon its long-standing dogmas and principles... how long are people going to keep beating at this dead-horse? ... We know already!

 

[Deutsch]

I think this is great for folks who don't just use their M5 to be pretend F1 drivers racing down public roads, but have real world intentions and aspirations for how they'd like to use their high performance sports sedan. There are plenty of people who'd love not to always have to drive an overbearing and overweight S.U.V. to get up a mountain pass to enjoy a time of snow sports, or better yet just to get around during winter time not having to worry their RWD is going to throw them in a ditch.

 

[330CIZHP]

BMW is the Toyota/Honda of the future. I mean, the M5 is weighing 4500 lbs with RWD. How heavy will be the AWD version? 4700 lbs? FFS!

M spent decades discovering and honing the winning formula to build "the ultimate driving machine" using real motorsports and now this f'ing idiot Kay Segler is chopping the whole thing down one branch at a time.

 

[SKY]

I see all of this pretty logical by BMW. What it was laughable was that crap they used to claim that thery were not making SUVs, AWD M cars, or turbo engines. In fact, reallity is here for everyone, incluiding BMW M, which is notthe sportiest brand of the bunch nor pretends to, so nothing surprising.

But the same is happening with other muxh more exclusive brands as Ferrari. When Todt was the head of Ferrari he said they wouldn´t be producing any more than 4K units per year to mantain the exclusiveness of the brand. Now they are aimming to produce 10K units per year.

But don´t mess with this too much. We just read forums more than we should. If things we read here were all true, we would have seen a tri-turbo diesel debuting with the X5 LCI, a V10 TT M5, inverted kidneys on the X3, KERS on the M5 (not confirmed but any of the previews talk about it). And so so on.

At the end of the day, M is just like AMG, or Quattro, with its advantages due to their strong experience. I would go for the M5 over the rest of the bunch so not everthing has changed at all.

 

[Zafiro]

Porsche used to say they wont use Porsche with diesel engines but we know the rest is history. The world is changing so is the car business. Should we really hold it against them about something they said 15 years ago

 

[Mr Robert]

I used to love M for making very special cars that really stood out in the crowd, it made picking the favourite rather easy. Now, with BMW moving rapidly towards the others, I'm not as sure anymore. The M5 has not won me over. Not yet... Now, BMW needs something else to stand out, now that Audi makes the lightest (and thereby the keenest driver's) cars in class and power seems to be everywhere.

I wonder where BMW will find the edge? Suspension software?

 

[330CIZHP]

Please don't bring Porsche into this.

They are doing fabulous work by doing everything right without compromising. Improving efficiency, lighter weight while getting more power using naturally aspirated lightweight engines at the sametime offering cutting edge technologies. Look at the new 4.0 Liter flat 6 they developed that returns 26 mpg while putting out 491 HP. That is practically astonishing. That shows clearly the direction they are headed in. If Panamera was not such a huge, bloated wagon, I am sure it would also have a much smaller efficient, high-revving, efficient boxer 6.

Difference is, Porsche is not cutting corners. BMW is to cut back production costs.

Porsche used to say they wont use Porsche with diesel engines but we know the rest is history. The world is changing so is the car business. Should we really hold it against them about something they said 15 years ago

 

[Centurion]

I mean, the M5 is weighing 4500 lbs with RWD. How heavy will be the AWD version? 4700 lbs? FFS!

We don't live in the 1990s. AWD systems are light this year around. The difference between the Panamera S and Panamera 4S is a 60kg, not much to rattle about IMO.

Dry weight PDK
Panamera S: 1,800kg
Panamera 4S: 1,860kg

However it's worth nothing that the manual Panamera S weigh 1,770kg. So by ditching dual clutch transmissions and AWD a car can save close to 100kg. Let's not forget that these are comfy passenger saloons we're talking about and thus waving fists in the air over kilos should be done with moderation.

 

[Zafiro]

Please don't bring Porsche into this.

Doesnt change the fact that Porsche doesnt keep their promises. So because bmw isnt doing the way you want it, then they are not allowed to make a AWD M5?
I'm sorry but something you said 15 years ago doenst mean you cant change and adapt to the market. I've said a lot of things during my life but my opinion changes too.

 

[Merc1]

I think the problem is that so many BMW "fans" here made it a point to put down turbos, superchargers, awd and automatics when AMG and S/RS, Jaguar's R were doing those things, yet now BMW is openly doing the same things and all those same "fans" have a jillion excuses till Sunday as to why BMW "must" and "has" to do this. Thats the problem. A failure to admit to eating major crow. Even BMW's own press releases used to frown on put down excess torque and forced induction, now its the holy grail of the industry. Its a major about-face, then save-face from a used to be arrogant company (or M division) and its fans.

I guess my question would be why can't BMW green the hell out of the non M models and still provide something different (i.e. what they used to do) for the M models? You can't "green up" a V10 or V8 in any other way than to stick turbos on it? I'm asking?

Porsche will likely be alone in naturally aspirated engines in a few years when it comes to German makes.


M

 

[Mr Robert]

Doesnt change the fact that Porsche doesnt keep their promises. So because bmw isnt doing the way you want it, then they are not allowed to make a AWD M5?
I'm sorry but something you said 15 years ago doenst mean you cant change and adapt to the market. I've said a lot of things during my life but my opinion changes too.

Difference is, Porsche can still muscle doing things as sharp as they did 10 years ago (GT3/RS/RS 4.0, GT2/RS), while still making things like the Cayenne with a diesel engine.

BMW is a small-ish manufacturer, and can't do those things anymore.

I think the problem is that so many BMW "fans" here made it a point to put down turbos, superchargers, awd and automatics when AMG and S/RS, Jaguar's R were doing those things, yet now BMW is openly doing the same things and all those same "fans" have a jillion excuses till Sunday as to why BMW "must" and "has" to do this.

When Audis and Jaguars were mocked, turbo technology was really bad. Have you driven, say, an Audi S2?

 

[Merc1]

Difference is, Porsche can still muscle doing things as sharp as they did 10 years ago (GT3/RS/RS 4.0, GT2/RS), while still making things like the Cayenne with a diesel engine.

BMW is a small-ish manufacturer, and can't do those things anymore.



When Audis and Jaguars were mocked, turbo technology was really bad. Have you driven, say, an Audi S2?

Not talking about some primative Audi or Jaguar. I'm talking about when Mercedes made cars like the previous E-Class supercharged (E55) models. Referring to the supercharging as a crutch all that other nonsense.


M

 

[SCOTT27]

Actually the question being asked by M is "What would you like?" Less Weight? or All Wheel Drive? You cannot have both...
It is true that they are looking at accomodating AWD for the M5 but it is not going to happen overnight. AWD was also looked at for the E60 and that did not happen.

What is M doing? they are adapting to the changes that are occurring in the market. There was demand for M SAV's so we satisfied the demand and opened up new markets in the process for M - The cars are both huge sellers and we will be sticking with them because they are profitable.

In China M for example is identified as a Youthful brand we have a high customer base of below 30 years old buying our products .
Our new marketing campaign for M in China.
BMW M

M5 etc use the platform matrix for the 5,6,7, RR Ghost , the next generation will use a more cost effective modular structure like the forthcoming F20 1er and F30 3er. As of lightweight we are getting there and we are progressing. The M3 Lightweight Sedan is between the regular M3 and the GTS in Power but with the sedan it showcases the progress that has happened since the M3 GTS especially in Material technology.

M3 GTS and M3 Lightweight Sedan are symbols of progress within the M Division and there will be further progress to show that BMW M are taking lightweight seriously .

The non-production Concept which will be a result of when BMWi joins BMW M. Not for products but synergies and lightweight technology expertise and material sharing in the not-so-far-away future.
For example a lot of forthcoming vehicles use lightweight materials for body panels while major components are fabricated using lighter metals.

BMW M will be the first manufacturer to virtually show you what the future of performance will be. And in this day and age Performance now has it's limits so BMWM are developing the solutions that will maintain BMW's overall leadership.

If you compare BMW to the competition in terms of c 02 goals in certain markets. VAG are languishing behind , Bugatti is at the last of the list Ferrari are leaps ahead of Lamborghini. They seem happy to pay the fines , BMW are not in a position to do that.

If things we read here were all true, we would have seen a tri-turbo diesel debuting with the X5 LCI, a V10 TT M5, inverted kidneys on the X3, KERS on the M5 (not confirmed but any of the previews talk about it). And so so on.

As I explain several times before the auto industry is an ever changing environment decisions are made , ideas considered , some green-lit , some discarded. Remember in some way or another I am time traveller I tell you what is happening now which is my description of the coming future.

Although I am not at BMW currently (I am with another division of BMW)
I see what is ahead , what is launched recently I have seen a couple of years back and reported on it.

I dont linger on one project because I simply do not have the time to go back and forth and have to focus on each assignment.
I will also tell you that some of the above is going to happen but you have to have patience.
We have just launched our entry level Efficient Dynamics Engine range comprising of 3/4 and 6 Cylinders we are now advancing on our next engine range of 6/8/10/12 Cylinders comprising both Petrol , diesel and hybrid.

You have to have patience because you will see upturned kidney grilles and a 50d in upper segment cars.

 

[martinbo]

Mercedes Benz are getting more and more legwork out of the AMG moniker ever since they acquired the Affalterbach tuner. We've seen the AMG badge far more ubiquitously applied than BMW had done in the past with M. Compact station wagons, SUVs and hairdresser cars all received the AMG makeover over and above the more suitable coupe and sedan fare.

BMW want to get in on, and need to get in on, this action. There're people out there with money and they're buying AMGs in all guises. So it's no surprise that we're seeing the M badge being applied more liberally with far less emphasis on sticking with an ethos.

The problem is that most of the people with money enough for an AMG, or an M for that matter, don't really care or even know of the car maker's philosophy toward engine construction or whether the car's automated transmission is a dual clutch, sequential or automatic. As long as it's the latest and greatest - it'll do. And if this is what your potential customer base wanted wouldn't you pander to their needs? It's all about status isn't it? We saw it with the M3 CSL - bought up in droves by those hankering after the latest and greatest, only to realise upon familiarity that it was unremittingly hardcore for their flabby buttocks and subsequently disposed of in such a rush that market values plummeted by 40% in the first year. Rich people want that badge of status, just like they want fancy watches and designer label eyewear.

For BMW it's now an opportunity to leverage off the M badge's iconic status and ///Milk it for what it's worth - taking the AMG badge head-on. In the light of this, how can one particular ethos, one highly specific approach with respect to the engineering of a motorsport-inspired philosophy be universally applicable across a much broader range? It can't.

For the keen driver with the knowledge and wherewithal to buy a dedicated performance machine with a specific set of criteria, there's inevitably going to be something available - maybe even something out of the same stable - be it a Black Series, GTS or RS model.

For those of us who subscribe(d) to the long-standing M way of doing things, well, we have to accept that times change and that progress is an inevitability, though this doesn't necessarily mean that we have to like it either.

BMW weren't lying to us when they extoled the virtues of the long-standing M philosophy - it was special and it still is special. Unfortunately, however, "special" isn't always sustainable.

 

[Human]

For those of us who subscribe(d) to the long-standing M way of doing things, well, we have to accept that times change

And that is the short and the long of it + time to get used to and over it

 

[Beemer B773ER]

Very well explained Martin!

For those of us who subscribe(d) to the long-standing M way of doing things, well, we have to accept that times change and that progress is an inevitability, though this doesn't necessarily mean that we have to like it either.

Okay, so we all now know that M has abandoned its long-standing ethos of naturally-aspirated motorsport-derived engines, manual transmission, rejecting SUV's and so on...... BUT, in my opinion they are still focused on the same end-result. What I mean by that is, even though the 1M and M5 have BMW-derived forced-induction engines, the M5 won't have a manual transmission, and whatever else people are butt-hurt about, it seems as though cars still posses that unique special M-ingredient of amazing handling & driver-involvement.
We've seen two tests where Audi RS models have out-performed the 1M, though the 1M was still given the nod due to its traditional M driving/handling qualities.

The X5/6M's... they could have just bolted in those turbos, screwed on those aggressive body kits, included some M-stitching to the interior..and called it a day. They would still be selling very well and for the same status reasons, and would've end up being more profitable due to lower R&D costs.... but according to reviews, the X5/6M's are able to perform in a way that a 4WD/SUV should not be able to when it comes to performance and handling and chassis balance.

Many of those long-standing principles/rules may be gone, but if an M car doesn't handle and involve you like it should... then that's when an M is no longer an M.

We know BMW has cut-back on M's resources, and we know the green-movement has forced M's hand to a degree, and yes M are ///Milking their brand image/heritage with the introduction of certain new models.....but after taking all this into consideration, maybe they're just using alternative means to the same end?

Before, placing an M car alongside a competing AMG or RS model, the M car was different on paper as well as on the track. Nowadays, an M car may be the same on paper, but IMO will continue to be different/special on the track. That to me is equally impressive.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

The X5/6M's... they could have just bolted in those turbos, screwed on those aggressive body kits, included some M-stitching to the interior..and called it a day.

Er....that's pretty much what they did do isn't it? The reviews I saw. The ones that mattered, were mediocre at best.