Vs Auto Express: Ferrari 458 Italia vs McLaren MP4-12C

Mr.Ree · Oct 24, 2011

Guibo said:
Several years, more like a couple of years.

Incorrect. RMS doesn't render the car inoperable. Like any other slow, gradual leak, you add oil. When the time comes, you take the car to the dealer where they replace the entire engine. Where did Porsche claim to beat other cars in every measure, including quality?

Where did Lexus ever themselves claim the LFA would do 220 mph and cost only $200k?

Its lap times are not faster than the 458 on the days that mattered: same-day, same-conditions, same drivers. It's not unparalleled under braking or wet lap times. And so far, there appears to be a lot more quality issues and customers tired of delays and backing out of orders than I've seen for other cars.

It depends on how big the leak gets.

You'll see on these links that several owners talk about getting it seen to when the leak gets bigger:

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/gt3-gt2-gt/214667-2011-gt3-rms-still-issue.html

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/gt3-gt2-gt/196484-my-gt3-rs-rms-replaced-again.html

Obviously when the leaks get bigger it becomes a serious matter. Besides this fact, oil is not supposed to be used like gasoline. You are not supposed to have to top your oil up every week, or every few days to avoid a major failure. You change it when it's dirty after maybe 5-6000 miles.

The LFA claims did the rounds on the internet 5 years ago and slowly the performance claims fell and the cost prediction rose.

Same driver is meaningless. I could hop onto a track with a GTR and any number of other supercars and probably be faster in the GTR regardless of the other cars' performance levels. Many more adequate drivers would be the same. HvS will always be stronger in 911s and Ben Collins will always be crap in them.

Same Driver != Same Ability

What would be really great is if the 458 and McLaren test drivers both turned up and were let loose on the same day. Do you agree? That way you have:

Same Day
Same Conditions
Same Ability (or as close as you'll ever get)

Human · Oct 24, 2011

Ron Dennis addresses McLaren MP4-12C quality issues

In a letter sent to MP4-12C owners, McLaren Chairman Ron Dennis addressed the quality issues that have plagued their latest sports car.
Noting problems with the infotainment system and warning lights, Dennis described the issues as "early software bugs" which can be fixed at the dealership. He went on to say the company wants to deliver a class-leading ownership experience, so customers will receive a free copy of McLaren: The Wins.

Guibo · Oct 24, 2011

Good of Ron to face up to the issues. However,
1) Nothing in the letter mentions a timetable of when the fixes for the bugs will occur, seeming to suggest they still don't know what the problem is. Question is: how did they manage to build 40 prototypes and drive them a million miles from arctic to desert conditions without these problems manifesting themselves?
2) We now have it plain black and white from none other than the CEO himself: "We have not yet been able to deliver on the high standards that we have promised."
There can be no question from McLaren apologists of whether the company is failing to deliver on the promise. With word from the horse's mouth, there should only be acknowledgement.

"Mr.Ree," if you're replying to my posts, don't bother. You're on Ignore.

Mr.Ree · Oct 24, 2011

1) Did anyone receive a timetable of fixes for Windows XP, aside from the release date of Windows 7?

2) Guibo - I will reply to your posts whether I am on ignore or not. What's clear is that they do have high standards, hence the letter. Ferrari were happy just to let people burn for some time and Porsche are still happy to promote the excessive sale of engine oil.

Monteverdi · Oct 24, 2011

Mr.Ree said:
Ferrari were happy just to let people burn for some time and Porsche are still happy to promote the excessive sale of engine oil.

Burning down happened to just some Italias. And, when they realised theres some problem, they repaired it for free in every single car.

Zafiro · Oct 24, 2011

I think its obvious we had too high expectations on the new Mclaren. The new Mclaren isnt the superior car we thought it would be. I'm sure its a great car but 458 is a little bit greater.

Mr.Ree · Oct 24, 2011

Just_me said:
I think its obvious we had too high expectations on the new Mclaren. The new Mclaren isnt the superior car we thought it would be. I'm sure its a great car but 458 is a little bit greater.

I respectfully disagree but sometimes trying to accumulate every aspect of two cars into an overall judgement is impossible.

Merc1 · Oct 24, 2011

Guibo said:
Question is: how did they manage to build 40 prototypes and drive them a million miles from arctic to desert conditions without these problems manifesting themselves?

I've always said that you can't test everything, the ultimate test is when the product is released to Joe Consumer, then the real bugs pop up. Don't ask to explain why, because I don't know, but thats how it happens. Ferrari tested and tested and tested, yet the 458 started catching fire the minute buyers started ringing them out on race tracks all over the world. The key is how you react+handle the problems in the field as they crop up.

M

Guibo · Oct 24, 2011

Merc1 said:
I've always said that you can't test everything, the ultimate test is when the product is released to Joe Consumer, then the real bugs pop up. Don't ask to explain why, because I don't know, but thats how it happens. Ferrari tested and tested and tested, yet the 458 started catching fire the minute buyers started ringing them out on race tracks all over the world. The key is how you react+handle the problems in the field as they crop up.
M

If you can't test for everything, then I think it's reasonable you shouldn't make boastful claims. The few 458 fires I have seen did not occur on a track but in normal driving. As I have said before, this is inexcusable for a car that has effectively been in constant development for decades. But then Ferrari never promised to beat all others in every measure including quality, recent 7-year included maintenance notwithstanding. They have always prided themselves on the more emotional aspect of ownership.

Some of these issues are not brand new ones that have only come to surface with customers using them. The issue of the door sensors was already noted in prior tests. Here's the one from Car:

And Evo:

Car and Evo drove two different cars, so it can't be isolated even among the press fleet. And that again begs the questions:
In 40 prototypes and 1 million miles of testing between all manner of climate extremes, wouldn't they have found this door problem by the time the car was tested by press?
When it is found in press test samples, shouldn't it have been resolved before customers took delivery? It has been almost 4 months since those press tests.
Despite the misguided efforts by some to paint this as an "attack" on McLaren, it's nothing of the sort. (Some of the McLaren customers are asking this very same question and having deposited substantial amounts of money and enduring multiple delays, who can blame them.) Merely pointing out that some of these problems are not entirely new and should easily have been found in testing, as it was already found in the relatively little time the press had these cars.

Good of Ron to issue a response, but for some customers, it is clear McLaren have fallen short in some areas of customer service. Many have complained about a lack of communication, lack of email response, lack of a concrete answer on the resolution of many of these issues.

Merc1 · Oct 24, 2011

Guibo - Calm down guy...lol.

I'm not making excuses for them, just stating what I've seen. Some things just don't pop up until after production and sale thats all. No excuse for it either way.

M

Mafalda · Oct 24, 2011

Guibo said:
If you can't test for everything, then I think it's reasonable you shouldn't make boastful claims. The few 458 fires I have seen did not occur on a track but in normal driving. As I have said before, this is inexcusable for a car that has effectively been in constant development for decades. But then Ferrari never promised to beat all others in every measure including quality, recent 7-year included maintenance notwithstanding. They have always prided themselves on the more emotional aspect of ownership.

Some of these issues are not brand new ones that have only come to surface with customers using them. The issue of the door sensors was already noted in prior tests. Here's the one from Car:

And Evo:

Car and Evo drove two different cars, so it can't be isolated even among the press fleet. And that again begs the questions:
In 40 prototypes and 1 million miles of testing between all manner of climate extremes, wouldn't they have found this door problem by the time the car was tested by press?
When it is found in press test samples, shouldn't it have been resolved before customers took delivery? It has been almost 4 months since those press tests.
Despite the misguided efforts by some to paint this as an "attack" on McLaren, it's nothing of the sort. (Some of the McLaren customers are asking this very same question and having deposited substantial amounts of money and enduring multiple delays, who can blame them.) Merely pointing out that some of these problems are not entirely new and should easily have been found in testing, as it was already found in the relatively little time the press had these cars.

Good of Ron to issue a response, but for some customers, it is clear McLaren have fallen short in some areas of customer service. Many have complained about a lack of communication, lack of email response, lack of a concrete answer on the resolution of many of these issues.

I agree. in primis, any defect is excusable, but there is something different. I was very careful about "reliability McLaren," but, day by day, is becoming increasingly clear that the MP4 has many problems, and in particular the problem of the doors is appalling.
In addition, the MP4 pays excessive expectations, expectations that the same McLaren powered.
they have spoken clearly of "best supercars of all time": dreadful performance (confirmed), super braking (not too..), and reading the data sheet, it is evident how the claimed datas are ALL better than the 458:
speed
acceleration
braking
emissions
consumption
price

therefore, the MP4 was expected as a sort of "humiliate-458".
not only it has failed to humiliate the 458, beating it only about acceleration (unsurprising victory), but is even criticized, partly right.
because failures occur during test-reviews, and now I don't think it is just bad luck ....

Mr.Ree · Oct 25, 2011

Guibo said:
If you can't test for everything, then I think it's reasonable you shouldn't make boastful claims.

Oh shut up. As if any manufacturer doesn't make boastful claims, especially when they're launching a new car after years of silence. It's called marketing. I will agree that it's stupid not to have a door handle, even TVR realised that with the Cerbera in the '90s. However, it's not like Ferrari, after testing, discovered that their car caught fire, or Porsche, after testing, discovered that their RMS leaks like a son of a bitch. These are major mechanical flaws not software/sensor glitches.