Comparison tests AMuS - New C200 vs A4 1.8 TFSI vs 320i Automatic vs S60 T4

[Kilcrohane]

We'll see Agent K, we'll see. Right now I'm "stuck" on holiday down here on the Wild Coast - I'd not venture to come down here in the 320d - so it looks like I shan't be driving for the next 10 days my (still class-leading and defining) lovely F30 which drives and handles better for a) what is the essence of the segment and b) for people,over 40 who still drive like they're 30, want from a car. You can keep the snooze fest for when I'm in my fifties.

You're being obtuse. From what you've just said, and the very fact that you're a massive car buff, YOU ARE NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE for this segment. In Europe it's the company car driver in his, increasingly her
C220/318 diesel, wanting economy, comfort and isolation from the outside world; in America it's the C300 leaser, who cares above all about being in a proper Benz for a relatively low monthly payment, in large part due to the expected high residual values; and elsewhere, like China, it'll again be the Mercedes-Benz brand image and the near S-Class-level luxury on offer, from the long wheelbase version especially.

It's a myth that the 3-Series-defined(till now) class is about sportiness and handling. That held true 30 years ago, but due above all to the "compact" sedan class having grown from around 4.2 to 4.7m, and from approximately 2,800 to 3,500 pounds typically, these class of cars can no longer be properly sporting and 'chuckable', as in effect they are the modern-day equivalents of the 5-series and E-Class from the 80s.

They are, by dint of their size, their weight, their huge engine ranges, and prices, all-purpose weapons, catering to a huge swathe of of the car-buying public, and that public increasingly wants 'secondary' factors, i.e., image rather than outright objective justification, and comfort, perceived oneupmanship luxury and status, rather than the last word in ability to go around a corner on rails, and increasingly and becoming very important, all-encompassing safety and 'idiot-proofing', and of course the usual infotainment geegaws.

That's how I see it at least and why I believe the C-Class will repeat the huge success of the new S-Class.

 

[klier]

That's how I see it at least....

Yes, but we're not all fired JLR employees at age 57 with no future left....

You're being obtuse.

And you are about to get banned.
Martin is a prime example of 3er target market, deal with it not fitting in your narrow minded view.

 

[Deckhook]

I have agree with Kilcrohane that these cars aren't bought primarily by enthusiastic drivers but by joe average who place importance on things other than handling finesse.

Review results are only important to fanboys on car forums as a form of oneupmanship and nothing else.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

And you are about to get banned.

Be patient. He will be, but the time isn't now.

 

[Zafiro]

What does obtuse mean? I've never heard the word before.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

What does obtuse mean? I've never heard the word before.

Two meanings.

It means an angle between 90 degrees and 180 degrees.

@Kilcrohane, I assume, wasn't referring to geometry, in which case he meant Martin was being "slow to realise", "not perceptive", or "annoyingly unable to understand something basic".

Maybe he will get a ban after all.

 

[Sunny]

Thank goodness for AMuS, which still has some objectivity, unlike the sensation-seeking Auto Bild to support its circulation, and the embarrassing Swedish publication that did a hatchet job on the C-Class, knowing how good it was, and a game-changer.

Yes, any magazine that doesn't give the win to a Mercedes is a hatchet job, says the king of objectivity, Mr. Doesn't know basic f#ckin math.

 

[mini_cooper4]

Remember the many, many comparos where the wildly-successful and utterly by-sales-dominant in its sector already W222 S-Class was bested by the 7-Series' superior powertrain, the Panamera's much greater agility, the A8/S8's dynamic edge, the Jag XJ's - okay, maybe not - ??? Did it make a jot of difference to the S-Class being crowned the class's champ, in terms of fit for purpose - luxury, comfort and safety??? NO.

The C-Class is EXACTLY the same. In comparos against the stop watch and tape measure it will either be bested like the S-Class or at best squeak out a marginal win.

But where it really matters, in this class, its superiority is effortless, overall, just like the W222's is.

Its safety, its comfort, its size, its interior, its luxury, its looks, and with the W205, its absolute superior economy, unlike the W222, all combine to set it at least half a level above the current class level.

That is what the naysayers are deliberately missing, and concentrating instead on its narrow win, or otherwise defeat against the humdrum aging competiton.

Like the W222, we'll look back in 6 months or so and see the huge sales advantage the W205 will have made clear by then, and by then it will seem perfectly normal for such a good car.

3er Segment and S-Class Segment are known as such for a reason and they are quite different from each other.
Customers in this class rely a lot more on what the press says about the cars than customers in the S-Class Segment.
The 3er will most probably take more wins in its life-cycle than any other car in this class.
Customers in this segment want efficiency, practicality and of course some comfort and agility... like big enough boot and good leg and headroom in the back.
In short - People want the best all-round car. And I'd suggest you go drive both cars back to back and tell me which one is the best all-round package.
Most BMW engines are more flexible and economical than the C-Class'... here we see an exception which will soon be fixed by BMW.
8HP 2.0 and the new 4pots from BMW will surely be Nothing But The Best as it has always been the case with new BMW engines.

PS: Should I even mention the price difference between the 3er and C-Class.

 

[Deckhook]

^Not sure I agree that people listen more in this class than any other because by this reckoning the 3 series should be the clear leader in the sales chart and by a healthy margin but this isn't the case. Sure people will read a review which might make them test drive a car but in the end if they don't like it they won't buy it no matter how many tests it wins.

Individuals are intelligent and make their own mind up its crowds that are easily lead.

 

[mini_cooper4]

^Not sure I agree that people listen more in this class than any other because by this reckoning the 3 series should be the clear leader in the sales chart and by a healthy margin but this isn't the case. Sure people will read a review which might make them test drive a car but in the end if they don't like it they won't buy it no matter how many tests it wins.

Individuals are intelligent and make their own mind up its crowds that are easily lead.

I'm not saying "more than any other class" just more than the S-Class Segment.
Most people who buy an S-Class, A8 or 7er don't care or read reviews. I for example don't care that some magazines say that the 7er has better ride than the W222. I went out and test drove the W222 and I'll choose it over the 7er.
If I didn't have the chance to drive so many cars I'll be reading some reviews before I choose what cars my company's fleet will consist of.
If I was to choose from the big three it HAS TO BE the 320d. Opel is good enough for my pocket tho
Same if I was choosing a car for myself and I was an average Joe who knows noth bout dem automobile... I'll open Google and search for some reviews and if it's my first time buying a premium car I'll most probably end up here and open a thread asking silly questions... then a guy with a funny nickname "mini_cooper4" will tell me to buy a 3er and will back it up with plenty of info and reviews proving that the car is indeed class leading... why not even call my car guy friend and ask him. He is a guy who reads reviews and I trust him since I know noth bout dem automobile and am an IT nerd(sorry Sunny)

 

[martinbo]

You're being obtuse. From what you've just said, and the very fact that you're a massive car buff, YOU ARE NOT THE TARGET AUDIENCE for this segment. In Europe it's the company car driver in his, increasingly her
C220/318 diesel, wanting economy, comfort and isolation from the outside world; in America it's the C300 leaser, who cares above all about being in a proper Benz for a relatively low monthly payment, in large part due to the expected high residual values; and elsewhere, like China, it'll again be the Mercedes-Benz brand image and the near S-Class-level luxury on offer, from the long wheelbase version especially.

It's a myth that the 3-Series-defined(till now) class is about sportiness and handling. That held true 30 years ago, but due above all to the "compact" sedan class having grown from around 4.2 to 4.7m, and from approximately 2,800 to 3,500 pounds typically, these class of cars can no longer be properly sporting and 'chuckable', as in effect they are the modern-day equivalents of the 5-series and E-Class from the 80s.

They are, by dint of their size, their weight, their huge engine ranges, and prices, all-purpose weapons, catering to a huge swathe of of the car-buying public, and that public increasingly wants 'secondary' factors, i.e., image rather than outright objective justification, and comfort, perceived oneupmanship luxury and status, rather than the last word in ability to go around a corner on rails, and increasingly and becoming very important, all-encompassing safety and 'idiot-proofing', and of course the usual infotainment geegaws.

That's how I see it at least and why I believe the C-Class will repeat the huge success of the new S-Class.

Great post. Really.

It's mildly vexing how you can be so erudite and astute about such things most of the time and then so patently intolerant and critical when the situation doesn't align with your views.

Yes, this is the quintessential one-size-fits-all class. I do believe, though, that for many people there is an element of driving pleasure (in all of its differently perceived forms) that remains fundamental to this class of, ostensibly, tweeners.

I would view myself as an extreme case in the class demographic in terms of exploiting handling but even so, in this class a large proportion of buyers will have an innate, tacit appreciation for a good drivetrain and tidy vehicle dynamics. So this is by no means the handling-on-rails class; what it is to say is that polished, accessible dynamics is not just a pre-requisite but de rigueur for this category. And, the degrees of separation, though still distinct, are getting ever closer in terms of vehicle dynamics (well, maybe for the RWD class protagonists - an A4 or S60 will never drive like a RWD car) to the point that the unitiated - the demographic you describe - wouldn't be able to discern the nuances at legal speed limits or safe cornering speeds.

However, the world is a wonderful, colourful place and - thankfully - some car makers still infuse their cars with a sporty demeanour because lots of people still appreciate the enjoyment of driving. To these people the instantly tangible dynamic fluidity of the F30 will sway their purchase decision far more heavily than a dashboard surface prod or the blight of poor transmission console plastics quality. And by no means do these people have to be racing drivers, instructors or motoring hacks intent on meting out a hatchet job on Mercedes Benz. They could even be - gasp - Chinese...

The new C-Class is a fantastic competitor in this segment - the segment defined originally by the BMW 3 Series, and the segment that's grown up with the BMW 3 Series. Like the W204 before it did, the W205 will beat the the F30 in a number of criteria but it will never beat it at being a 3 Series.

 

[Kilcrohane]

Great post. Really.

It's mildly vexing how you can be so erudite and astute about such things most of the time and then so patently intolerant and critical when the situation doesn't align with your views.

Yes, this is the quintessential one-size-fits-all class. I do believe, though, that for many people there is an element of driving pleasure (in all of its differently perceived forms) that remains fundamental to this class of, ostensibly, tweeners.

I would view myself as an extreme case in the class demographic in terms of exploiting handling but even so, in this class a large proportion of buyers will have an innate, tacit appreciation for a good drivetrain and tidy vehicle dynamics. So this is by no means the handling-on-rails class; what it is to say is that polished, accessible dynamics is not just a pre-requisite but de rigueur for this category. And, the degrees of separation, though still distinct, are getting ever closer in terms of vehicle dynamics (well, maybe for the RWD class protagonists - an A4 or S60 will never drive like a RWD car) to the point that the unitiated - the demographic you describe - wouldn't be able to discern the nuances at legal speed limits or safe cornering speeds.

However, the world is a wonderful, colourful place and - thankfully - some car makers still infuse their cars with a sporty demeanour because lots of people still appreciate the enjoyment of driving. To these people the instantly tangible dynamic fluidity of the F30 will sway their purchase decision far more heavily than a dashboard surface prod or the blight of poor transmission console plastics quality. And by no means do these people have to be racing drivers, instructors or motoring hacks intent on meting out a hatchet job on Mercedes Benz. They could even be - gasp - Chinese...

The new C-Class is a fantastic competitor in this segment - the segment defined originally by the BMW 3 Series, and the segment that's grown up with the BMW 3 Series. Like the W204 before it did, the W205 will beat the the F30 in a number of criteria but it will never beat it at being a 3 Series.

Thank-you. I value your invariably excellent contributions on your site too. Have a good holiday, and Happy Easter!

 

[klier]

You value nothing, you just come here to vent your narrow minded fanboy thoughts.

Happy Easter indeed.

 

[Deckhook]

^You make it

I would view myself as an extreme case in the class demographic in terms of exploiting handling but even so, in this class a large proportion of buyers will have an innate, tacit appreciation for a good drivetrain and tidy vehicle dynamics. So this is by no means the handling-on-rails class; what it is to say is that polished, accessible dynamics is not just a pre-requisite but de rigueur for this category. And, the degrees of separation, though still distinct, are getting ever closer in terms of vehicle dynamics (well, maybe for the RWD class protagonists - an A4 or S60 will never drive like a RWD car) to the point that the unitiated - the demographic you describe - wouldn't be able to discern the nuances at legal speed limits or safe cornering speeds.

However, the world is a wonderful, colourful place and - thankfully - some car makers still infuse their cars with a sporty demeanour because lots of people still appreciate the enjoyment of driving. To these people the instantly tangible dynamic fluidity of the F30 will sway their purchase decision far more heavily than a dashboard surface prod or the blight of poor transmission console plastics quality. And by no means do these people have to be racing drivers, instructors or motoring hacks intent on meting out a hatchet job on Mercedes Benz. They could even be - gasp - Chinese...

The demographic he's describing probably accounts for >95% of all cars in this class purchased worldwide including the 3 series. None of these have anything like the kind of steering feel one expects from a true driver's car and neither do the really offer the kind of body control that would satisfy on a track and I talking about the ordinary models here which account for the vast majority of sales not your RS/M/AMGs. The A4, 3 and C-class all corner at speeds within a few percent of each other on the limit and noticing which wheels are doing the propelling only truly becomes apparent if you are being ham-fisted with the throttle, not something you generally do on the highway so if there isn't that much to separate them in normal day to day driving it's the other things that sets them apart be it their styling, finish, badge snobbery, spec, options, efficiency, running cost, residuals, monthly payments the list could go on and on.

In fact if you were to run a poll asking the main posters on here what cars have they owned over the last 10-12 years you'll probably see a pattern of one brand being mainly chosen be that Audi, BMW, Merc, Porsche, etc which shows that each of us generally like a certain style and brand rather than choosing the one that necessarily wins all the reviews.

The new C-Class is a fantastic competitor in this segment - the segment defined originally by the BMW 3 Series, and the segment that's grown up with the BMW 3 Series. Like the W204 before it did, the W205 will beat the the F30 in a number of criteria but it will never beat it at being a 3 Series.

I agree with this closing comment and neither should it even try to beat it at being a 3 series, a clone is the last thing we need.

 

[Amat46]

Come one people, Mercedes wants to create a Mercedes for the segment not to emulate the 3 series.

It’s about damn time that makers of luxury automobiles stop trying to emulate the BMW 3 Series. Yes, for a couple decades it was the world’s best-driving compact sport-luxury sedan. But thanks to so many other automakers’ lack of originality and a disregard for their own company’s identities, we now have a market flooded with wannabe sports sedans that miss the mark. Hell, even BMW can’t do what it used to. So it’s about time that everyone stopped trying to. Mercedes just has, and the result is spectacular—perhaps that’ll be a lesson to everyone else.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/first-drives/2015-mercedes-benz-c400-4matic?src=soc_fcbks

 

[martinbo]

The demographic he's describing probably accounts for >95% of all cars in this class purchased worldwide including the 3 series. None of these have anything like the kind of steering feel one expects from a true driver's car and neither do the really offer the kind of body control that would satisfy on a track and I talking about the ordinary models here which account for the vast majority of sales not your RS/M/AMGs. The A4, 3 and C-class all corner at speeds within a few percent of each other on the limit and noticing which wheels are doing the propelling only truly becomes apparent if you are being ham-fisted with the throttle, not something you generally do on the highway so if there isn't that much to separate them in normal day to day driving it's the other things that sets them apart be it their styling, finish, badge snobbery, spec, options, efficiency, running cost, residuals, monthly payments the list could go on and on.

In fact if you were to run a poll asking the main posters on here what cars have they owned over the last 10-12 years you'll probably see a pattern of one brand being mainly chosen be that Audi, BMW, Merc, Porsche, etc which shows that each of us generally like a certain style and brand rather than choosing the one that necessarily wins all the reviews.

I agree with this closing comment and neither should it even try to beat it at being a 3 series, a clone is the last thing we need.

Oh Bob, even the most hapless moron of a driver will perceive the intrinsic differences in the way the key class contenders drive. The more discerning of us will know when we're on the throttle in a 3er that it will understeer a little at first and then tighten from the rear as more throttle is applied. This has nothing to do with being ham-fisted. And who said anything about driving on a track? What, is a track the only place where one can drive a car enthusiastically? Please. Passenger cars are designed for road use and it's through road use that the dynamic differences ought to be easily discernible to people who don't even post on Internet car forums. I.e. my wife can recognise the difference in steering between a Subaru and a BMW and she doesn't give a rats arse about cars.

Come one people, Mercedes wants to create a Mercedes for the segment not to emulate the 3 series.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/first-drives/2015-mercedes-benz-c400-4matic?src=soc_fcbks

And this comes as some form of revelation to Road & Track? Like it was any different with the frankly f#cking excellent W204 or the W203 before it? It's a bit of a junior staff writer level of opinion there. Mercedes Benz has been doing what Mercedes Benz does best in this class for over a decade now. And it has hurt 3 Series sales as much as 5er sales have hurt the E-Class. Nothing new here.

The fundamental tenet of this discussion is that there is a certain way that a BMW 3er drives that IS STILL intrinsic in its appeal, as much as the class has moved on and grown up (like this is anything new eh GTI?) there is still something eminently enjoyable about driving a 3er that sets it apart - less so - from a C-Class and - more so - from an Audi A4.

The W205 is a frikken magnificent effort from Merc, one that easily bests the 3er in several areas. Just don't tell me that it has the 3 Series completely licked all round because that's bullsh1t.

 

[Rolf]

4th place: Volvo S60 T4 Momentum (427/650 points, 65,7%)
Well... it's relatively cheap.

• Power, torque: 180 hp, 240 Nm
• Gearbox: 6-speed-manual
  
• Weight: 1532 kg
• 0-100 kph: 8,8 s
• 0-130 kph: 14,0 s
• 0-160 kph: 22,5 s
• 0-200 kph: 46,7 s
• Flexibility (80-120 kph) in 5th/6th gear: 12,5 s/15,3 s
• Braking (100-0 kph), warm: 38,1 m
• 18 m slalom: 63,0 kph
  
• 110 m evasive test: 131,6 kph
• Noise level at 130 kph: 68 dB(A)
  
• Average fuel consumption: 9,0 l/100 km

3rd place: Audi A4 1.8 TFSI Ambition (488/650 points, 75,1%)
Good engine, safe behaviour, high quality, good price in comparison.

• Power, torque: 170 hp, 320 Nm
• Gearbox: 6-speed-manual
  
• Weight: 1518 kg
• 0-100 kph: 7,8 s
• 0-130 kph: 12,9 s
• 0-160 kph: 20,1 s
• 0-200 kph: 38,7 s
• Flexibility (80-120 kph) in 5th/6th gear: 10,0 s/12,3 s
• Braking (100-0 kph), warm: 35,6 m
• 18 m slalom: 63,1 kph
  
• 110 m evasive test: 130,7 kph
• Noise level at 130 kph: 68 dB(A)
  
• Average fuel consumption: 8,7 l/100 km

2nd place: BMW 320i Automatic (490/650 points, 75,4%)
Despite the automatic gearbox and the comfortable ride the 320i is still the "handling hero".
Plus, it's easy to use and it's roomy.

• Power, torque: 184 hp, 270 Nm
• Gearbox: 8-speed-automatic
  
• Weight: 1514 kg
• 0-100 kph: 7,6 s
• 0-130 kph: 12,4 s
• 0-160 kph: 19,3 s
• 0-200 kph: 35,6 s
• Flexibility (80-120 kph): 5,3 s in Drive
  
• Braking (100-0 kph), warm: 36,8 m
• 18 m slalom: 63,8 kph
  
• 110 m evasive test: 135,2 kph
• Noise level at 130 kph: 70 dB(A)
  
• Average fuel consumption: 8,8 l/100 km

1st place: Mercedes-Benz C200 (493/650 points, 75,8%)
Yes, the safe, comfortable and economic C-class won its first comparison test. With a better drive its advantage would be bigger.

• Power, torque: 184 hp, 300 Nm
• Gearbox: 6-speed-manual
  
• Weight: 1506 kg
• 0-100 kph: 7,8 s
• 0-130 kph: 12,6 s
• 0-160 kph: 18,9 s
• 0-200 kph: 34,2 s
• Flexibility (80-120 kph) in 5th/6th gear: 10,2 s/15,0 s
  
• Braking (100-0 kph), warm: 35,6 m
• 18 m slalom: 64,5 kph
  
• 110 m evasive test: 132,4 kph
• Noise level at 130 kph: 69 dB(A)
  
• Average fuel consumption: 8,1 l/100 km

I have comparison tests from AMS where the previous C200 W204 was compared to A4 1.8TSI and 320i in both manual and automatic guises and there was hardly a weight increase for the autobox (only about 10kg) and also weight was 1527kg so the new C200 is only 20kg less than previous C-class. Difference in performance between this C200 and W204 C200 is only slightly quicker in case of new C200, 0-100 in 7.8sec (8.0sec W204), 0-160km/h in 18.9sec (19.6sec W204).

I am interested to see where the W205 lost points in this comparison compared to the Audi and BMW, I would reckon the cost part and maybe gearbox.

Do you have the full points breakdown Dede?

 

[DeDe]

Do you have the full points breakdown Dede?

 

[KiwiRob]

The only game changer turns out to be you showing your true fanboy colors.
An MB fanboy hating on JLR. CUTE!!

I don't know about you, but I was impressed that he didn't slag off JLR in his post, it must be a first!!

 

[klier]

^ probably too busy praising MB...