Alternative Fuel: Ethanol vs. BioDiesel

[Choleric]

So being from the great agricultural state of Nebraska, and a very agricultural university. A very testy and prickly argument arose in class (Latin American culture&civilization of all classes) today over the benefits of BioDiesel over ethanol after someone brought up Brazil's sugar ethanol vs. corn based ethanol and US import duties on other forms of ethanol, it all spiraled from there.

Now I am not really too knowledgeable on the subject, but was curious as to others here view on the topic, being that at the rate oil is going, you car nuts gotta have a opinion.

 

[bmer]

Both have so many indirect negative effects that I can't see them becoming true alternatives, at least not until those shortcomings have been solved.

 

[VroomVroom]

Sea Water

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[Deleted member 182]

Hydrogen is the way to go. Pretty much all major car makers agree that this the future of automobile. The question is, when?

 

[Monster]

So being from the great agricultural state of Nebraska, and a very agricultural university. A very testy and prickly argument arose in class (Latin American culture&civilization of all classes) today over the benefits of BioDiesel over ethanol after someone brought up Brazil's sugar ethanol vs. corn based ethanol and US import duties on other forms of ethanol, it all spiraled from there.

Now I am not really too knowledgeable on the subject, but was curious as to others here view on the topic, being that at the rate oil is going, you car nuts gotta have a opinion.

Very interesting topic mate. I might be able to provide the answer by the end of the year. I am currently researching on the use and effects of ethanol diesel mixture for normal diesel engines, while another fellow researcher is studying the use and effects of biodiesel for normal diesel engines.

We are both going run our fuel on the Volvo diesel engine we have in the engine lab, but it won't happen until mid year earliest.

 

[coolraoul]

I had read that biodiesel has many advantages over ethanol, but can't remember the details. However, it was less interesting for the state I think, thus the big push towards ethanol or E85.

The problem with E85 is that the motor can't start at low temperature, or needs a lot more combustible for that.
So either you start on petrol, which is stupid because such a cold start it pollutes a lot and needs to refuel a special tank, or your car is only E85 and then it needs a lot of E85 to start and to go in temperature, leading to a much much increased consumption and pollution...which is not the aim. Or you have a bi-fuel and it's not the best because if it does both it can't be very efficient.

There is also the problem of the culture, you need to produce it and it's at cost of other agricultural products, which is not green at all.

Whereas biodiesel is no problem, and from an exhaust PoV it seems more eco-friendly too.

I can't remeber exactly, but the article said bio-diesel was waay better, but less interesting for the state.

However the future seems to be in hydrogen fuel-cell. Which are posing different problems: the production of the batteries is extremely polluting, and the precious metals needed in the chemical process of turning hydrogen into water and electricity, like platinum for instance, exceeds by far the availability of them on earth...

This is why the fuel-cell can't be produced today: it's too expensive, and simply impossible to mass-produce because of the rarity of the needed components. All the carmakers are intensively seeking alternative components, now that the cold-start problem seems solved by the majority of them.

Another question is, such an amount of water produced by millions of fuel-cell powered car could not be the right solution...

An interesting recent thread was about Mercedes, thinking of electrical cars with a kind of dynamo able to partly recharge the batteries while the car is moving...Interesting too.

The new tech concerning batteries, with Li-Ion adapted by Daimler to car production, and this new company declaring they have boosted the battery capacity by ten (ten!!), could make things move more towards electrical cars to plug with a fuel-cell that would only be used when the batteries are nearly empty...

I'm quite concerned by all these environment issues, and I would be very interested in some details.
It's a very interesting topic, Choleric, many thanks for that.

 

[Monster]

All these research into fuel cell car is great, but people do forget that the main polluters in 3rd world countries are those ancient, hugely inefficient heavy duty diesel trucks which emit many million tons of harmful gas into the atmosphere every day.

We are making small but constant progress in solving the fuel cell car problem, but hardly anyone has look into the issue of using fuel cell to power heavy duty trucks.

 

[Monster]

Another question is, such an amount of water produced by millions of fuel-cell powered car could not be the right solution...

Those millions of water can be stored and transport to parts of countries in drought, or they can be used as fresh, clean drinking water for the people living in the developing world.

 

[coolraoul]

Yep, the water can be used...but same problem: who will get this water? the rich countries with lots of modern and expensive fuel-cell cars... The countries in need for this water won't have free access to it...

And how do you store it? will we see a water-filter after the particule-filter? ... or will it go into a special tank? Then it will need to be emptied from times to times, especially if you are travelling a lot...

Concerning heavy-duty trucks...
I know Daimler has some fuel-cell busses driving around the world, and I think another carmaker too (a Japanese one, maybe Toyota), so we could see in the future some fuel-cell trucks. Especially if it becomes interesting due to obscene petrol prices.

Anyway, I remember that in China (and other countries), trucks are not allowed to go through the cities during the day because these old motor burn very low-quality diesel and are extremely polluting, and that they are producing enormous toxic clouds...
and as there is not a lot of fuel-stations they are waiting for refuel during hours or even days, with of course the motor still running to move with the others...Burning cheap, sulfur-loaded, extremely toxic diesel...