All the exciting news here please! (No SUV, SAV, PAC or whatever...)

[Tarek]

M3 cabrio?

F01 7er?

That's lame

IMO M3 cabrio and 7er while being a new nice models are hardly interesting as an out-right sports car but oh well...

That discussion is very old,long and boring and i won't even try to go there and clutter it here but i just had to say what i said

 

[Mr Robert]

Just_me hits the sweetspot there. So, BMW has 9 M-models as of about yesterday. Out of these I think the M3 and Z4 are the ones that are spirited enough, CSL versions of them would have been heaven.

Eni says that he has said a gazillion times that BMW is not a sportscar brand. Today I would agree. That has not always been the case, a brand is a sportscar brand if it has sportscars in its line. In a sense BMW has a few cars that are sportscar-ish (said M3 and Z4, for instance) but there is not much more than that. I think (please bear with me, I have been told before here that I don't know jack about marketing) it is quite appropriate to strive at having the sportiest core products in every segment when you have the sportscars to justify it.

On a similar note, I have said a gazillion times that it is not BMW AG that we love, it is the cars they produce from time to time. We are emotional about this, not rational. If we were rational then we would all be driving Škodas. Hence, the Creative Marketing boys and girls will have to live with forum fans questioning some things. Well, more than that, there must be a reason why CM is here at all. Right?

Well, that was a bit off topic. What we want here is news (even page 2 stuff) on exciting things comming from BMW/Mini (nothing from RR is likely to fit here).

 

[Tarek]

^The thing is,where other brands known for being less sport than BMW makes out-right sports cars while BMW doesn't and continue on making trucks and vans is just a little confusing

 

[EnI]

I rather see BMW focusing on sportier versions of Z4, 1-series, 3-series than X6M, M7 and V3M.

Even if they make loss with them, or just a marginal profit?

Are you aware that a product becomes profitable at some certain point when enough units are sold. And if there is a market for eg. 5,000 M1 cars worldwide annually , and the breaking profit point is at 6,000 cars annually then do not expect such a car from BMW. And even if the braking point is at 4,900 that's not enough.

If many of you who demand such cars from BMW would really buy them then I'm sure BMW would be pleased to produce them.

No company makes goods just to feed egos of the fans. Especially the ones who demand a supercar or a luxury coupe, and have absolutely no money to buy it.


*****

I'm sure most of you are angry indeed since "there is nothing exciting enough from BMW to discuss right now". And just for you guys, I can now officially announce BMW is launching the following car next week:

BMW WDH2O* ... a mid-engined supercar with a deca-turbo 2.0L V20 super-revoulitionary watter engine ... 2050HP / 5000Nm at 15,000rpm ... 0-100km/h in 1.8sec ... 0-200km/h in 4sec.


And will be soon followed with its even more evil twin - a spyder model:
BMW G.a.L*




*WD stands for WetDream, H2O for watter; G.a.L stands for Get-a-Life

 

[SKY]

Oh, btw, EnI, I always forget to ask you about the F01 based M7 now that CS has been axed. What about this now?.

A M7 will be mind-blowing.

 

[EnI]

A M7 will be mind-blowing.

Who'll gonna buy it?

Those 200 people a year?
Not enough for a profit-making project. Unless the price is $200k ... Yet in this case only 10 people a year would buy it - and the total loss would be even bigger.

 

[Zafiro]

Even if they make loss with them, or just a marginal profit?

They don't have to make a profit of every single model they make. What profit are MB making out of SL65 Black Series or Audi with their R8 or Q7 V12 TDI?
If BMW cant sell performance cars like MB and Audi do , well, then BMW sure has a lousy image if people aren't intrested.
I bet my life on that X6M wont give BMW much more money in the pocket. BMW are so money obsessed that they are forgetting why I started to be crazy in BMW. So sad, so sad! I dont care if its a limited edition, just bring on some intresting cars and not garbage like PAS or Minivans.

and the BMW WDH2O. what a f'*** up car if it was a reality.


and you, ENI, stop defending BMW, tell us what you really feel becuase I seriously doubt you care much about PAS or V models.

 

[Merc1]

This is all nonsense. If there is no market for a M7 or CS then what makes BMW or anyone else think there is a market for a not one, but two 500hp trucks? BMW supplied answer: There are AMG ML, Porsche Cayenne's and what not....uh ok. There are S63 AMGs and S8s too.....and every last one of them sell more than 200 copies a year!


Reasoning debunked!


There problem isn't the market demand, its the lack of prestige or sufficient image to command the prices of a high-end AMG Mercedes, Porsche or a entry-level Bentley or Aston-Martin.

The market is there, but BMW isn't prestigious enough to compete in it. All this profit talk is pure BS. Everyone else can make and sell a high-end car no matter what it is, they can sell some of them. If BMW can't that is there problem, not the market.


M

 

[Mr Robert]

I can now officially announce BMW is launching the following car next week:

BMW WDH2O* ... a mid-engined supercar with a deca-turbo 2.0L V20 super-revoulitionary watter engine ... 2050HP / 5000Nm at 15,000rpm ... 0-100km/h in 1.8sec ... 0-200km/h in 4sec.


And will be soon followed with its even more evil twin - a spyder model:
BMW G.a.L*

*WD stands for WetDream, H2O for watter; G.a.L stands for Get-a-Life

Oh, that is just the spirit!

I'm only predicting a few minor copyright infringement complaints from WD-40 company, but that is nothing new to BMW AG come time for launches

 

[Merc1]

Every since this board started we've had to read about how smart BMW was, how shrewd they are and yet they can't figure out how to sell a specialty model for a profit? I mean which is it? Everyone else can do this, except BMW? It is a specious argument.

Again, (haven't gotten an answer yet). How is making the CS a problem when all you're doing is taking the 7 and making it into something sportier, flashier, faster, and selling it for way more......yet we're supposed to believe it is dirt cheap to take a 5000lb truck and turn it into an "M" vehicle.

The X5 doesn't fit the M philosophy...that is what we heard over and over, yet now it does......why? Because of profits? Is this BMW or Toyota?



M

 

[Tarek]

They don't have to make a profit of every single model they make. What profit are MB making out of SL65 Black Series or Audi with their R8 or Q7 V12 TDI?
If BMW cant sell performance cars like MB and Audi do , well, then BMW sure has a lousy image if people aren't intrested.
I bet my life on that X6M wont give BMW much more money in the pocket. BMW are so money obsessed that they are forgetting why I started to be crazy in BMW. So sad, so sad! I dont care if its a limited edition, just bring on some intresting cars and not garbage like PAS or Minivans.

and the BMW WDH2O. what a f'*** up car if it was a reality.


and you, ENI, stop defending BMW, tell us what you really feel becuase I seriously doubt you care much about PAS or V models.

This is all nonsense. If there is no market for a M7 or CS then what makes BMW or anyone else think there is a market for a not one, but two 500hp trucks? BMW supplied answer: There are AMG ML, Porsche Cayenne's and what not....uh ok. There are S63 AMGs and S8s too.....and every last one of them sell more than 200 copies a year!


Reasoning debunked!


There problem is the market demand, its the lack of prestige or sufficient image to command the prices of a high-end AMG Mercedes, Porsche or a entry-level Bentley or Aston-Martin.

The market is there, but BMW isn't prestigious enough to compete in it. All this profit talk is pure BS. Everyone else can make and sell a high-end car no matter what it is, they can sell some of them. If BMW can't that is there problem, not the market.


M

Thanx u two

 

[EnI]

The goal of every business is to make A PROFIT. That's why people invest their capital in. To get out a profit, not loss.

And of course more profit is better than less profit.

Yes, a company can produce a sports car that makes a loss - making it a marketing investment / expense. An image-building / image-boosting product.

I'm not familiar with Audi numbers, nor eg. Nissan or Ford ones regarding their sports cars (R8, GT-R, GT) ... But I guess they make a loss with those products - just selling them to boost the brand image.

Right now BMW do not need an image boost ...


******

Also: R&D departments of Ford, Nissan, VW / Audi, Daimler etc are much bigger than BMW R&D department: so limited human resources are also a problem for BMW. OK, eg. Porsche R&D dept. is even smaller - but they deal with much less models & they can focus more. And to be still able to do that they bought VW - to get the access to the economy of scales. Something BMW & MB can only dream of - since their marriages with Rover & Chrysler failed.


******

Regarding CS: yes, I was also sad to hear the project is canned. I was told months ago such a product is welcome to boost BMW luxury image: in typical BMW manner - being sporty & luxurious. And it made sense - since BMW already have sporty image, yet they need a luxury image boost to rival MB more. And also Lexus etc.

You'll call me crazy but BMW suffers from too much sporty image. Many people think BMW is too sporty-performance, and are therefore not interested in such a brand.

Therefore BMW are introducing "less BMW-ish" models (eg. crossovers & SAVs etc) which are trendy right now ... To also lure in some non-BMW customers. To convince them BMW is not only sporty-performance but also practical cars with some BMW (sporty-performance) spirit.

CS: as I told you ... the project will emerge as a variant of baby RR (same platform) yet the profits will be much higher - since the car will be sold for 250k Euros, while under BMW brand 150k limit was already almost too high.


******

Conventional segments are already overcrowded ... therefore new niches have to be filled. With cars that sell well. Not cars that sold less than 10k units per year.



Is BMW a "Toyota"? No, but it isn't a Porsche or Jaguar either.

With more than 1 million units sold per year BMW & MB are hardly an exclusive brands anymore. Get a Jag or Porsche instead.


******

Do I care about BMW launching more & more SAVs & crossovers - even in M disguise? Not really. Till they keep core models & core Ms fit, and make the new niche models typical BMW dynamic.

For me core BMW product is 3er ... And when / if 3er is f....d up then I'll stop believing in BMW. Other products are just supplements. To spice up the BMW brand. Being that a 7er, X5, X1, PAS, CS etc


******

Regarding diluted brand image ...
An SUV (Cayenne) didn't hurt Porsche brand at all. As well the (mini)vans (A, B, R) didn't hurt MB.

BMW is a set of values & spirits not a certain shape or technology.

So, even an electric bus can be a real BMW after all.

 

[Tarek]

BMW is a set of values & spirits not a certain shape or technology.

LOL

Considering the current model expansion that is total BS IMO

 

[EnI]

LOL

It's true.

BMW is not about NA high-rev engine. Nor is about RWD. Nor is about sedanish coupes etc. Nor is about model designations.

It's about that typical BMW driving feel that's unique, and differentiating BMW from the rivals. And through different eras different technology makes that possible. So, that feeling it's not certain tech exclusive.

That's why also BMW SUV, turbo-engined BMW, a diesel BMW, an AWD BMW, metaltop cabrio/roadster BMWs, sDrive35i BMWs etc are also as special and as good as any other BMWs with other tech & classic designation.

Regarding M: if X6 M / X5 M is be able to drift than it's a real M. And I'm sure DPC & special M xDrive settings will make that possible. Not in the proportions of eg. Z4 M or M3 ... but definitely as much to be worthy of M badge.

 

[Mr Robert]

Do I care about BMW launching more & more SAVs & crossovers - even in M disguise? Not really. Till they keep core models & core Ms fit, and make the new niche models typical BMW dynamic.

For me core BMW product is 3er ... And when / if 3er is f....d up then I'll stop believing in BMW. Other products are just supplements. To spice up the BMW brand. Being that a 7er, X5, X1, PAS, CS etc

You and I have fundamentally different views on what makes BMW great. That is ok. I can let myself become emotional while you on the other hand might not have that luxury, you might even know to much to even bother.

Regarding diluted brand image ...
An SUV (Cayenne) didn't hurt Porsche brand at all. As well the (mini)vans (A, B, R) didn't hurt MB.

That did hurt them but not at all as much as it would have if they did not build proper sportscars like they always have. Black Series might be a poor effort compared to BMW:s CSL but still, it is an effort and a honouralbe one. Porsche still makes RS-models, right?

So, even an electric bus can be a real BMW after all.

That it might very well be. No one would think BMW about it but I guess many would say it has some sort of BMW feel to it. The dangerous thing is when that BMW feel is "Oh, this bus is quite enjoyable to drive, a bit better than the Chrysler Voyager", rather than "Oh man, this bus is a damn killer, you know it has a lot in common with that K.E.R.S M3 CSL they will show to customers over at Laguna Seca this weekend, maybe we should go have a look?".

But then again, what do I know.

 

[LaArtist]

BMW is now something that we cant put a finger on.
its a feeling
How convinient for BMW..
As we will never notice it gone.. or that its present

Gotta change in the direction of the wind ehh

 

[EnI]

In the premium segments BRANDS do count more than the PRODUCTS per se.

Period. It's a fact.

Put a KIA badge on a MB, and nobody would want to buy such a car for more than a 20k Euros / USDollars.

Beside tangible values represented through the product (eg. premium materials, interesting design, special driving feel etc) there are also intangible values present when the brand comes in question.
Something that the brand represents - what has been promoted & advertised in the whole history combined with customer base perception (which can be a bit different than the advertised message).

It's not a secret today BMW brand stands for: (MOTOR)SPORTS, POWER, SUCCESS, DYNAMISM, INDEPENDENCE, PROGRESS.

Product (car) is only one channel the brand is communicated through. But not the only one. The brand doesn't equals product. But it does equal the product + many other things as well (aftermaths of various marketing activities). Although the product is still the most important & essential channel.

And so on ...

Go read some books on marketing ...

 

[Mr Robert]

Go read some books on marketing ...

You are right, but only on a rational point.

For me, Kotler will do. I'm a lawyer after all.

 

[EnI]

The problem is I'm already a bit professionally deformed: knowing too much on the issue, and therefore see it from a very different angle than most of the common people do. And thus often finding such people ignorant - due they don't have enough insight for a serious debate.

 

[Mr Robert]

The problem is I'm already a bit professionally deformed: knowing too much on the issue, and therefore see it from a very different angle than most of the common people do. And thus often finding such people ignorant - due they don't have enough insight for a serious debate.

Try stepping down for a while and walk with us for a few miles. I find it very rewarding in area anyway.