German Car Forum

EnI · 09-24-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scott26

Projekt PLS- F-03. Premium luxury Sedan.

D-day is fast approaching at BMW soon the decision will be made on where does the brand go next , Serious decisions will be given on the next generation 6er Coupe and cabrio ( expected to be a evolution of todays car) and a model Although only existing in sketches , computer animations and claymodels to either top the BMW brand , expand a segment or open an entirely new segment for BMW.
With the motoring media reporting that a "small" Rolls-Royce is being developed they are reporting that it will be a direct rival for the Bentley Continental GT family - It wont be...
Although their will be a smaller RR family below the Phantom it will not be directly competing against the Bentley Continental family but be positioned slightly lower than the Phantom.
Four factors are weighing against this decision.

1. To keep RR exclusive .
2. The BMW brand has enough stability to compete against the upper reigns of the segment including the Bentley continental Family.
3. BMW like to investigate new segments - witness BMW X3 (premium compact SAV segment) , BMW E87 Coupe and cabrio ( premium small coupe and cabrio segment) , BMW RFK and BMW X6 "sport activity coupe)
4. BMW do not really want a me too Coupe competitor as the segment is crowded enough.

Whilst we have talked about the 8er Coupe prospect another competing model for greenlight this october is BMW's " Premium luxury sedan" which is being investigated as a possible 9 series addition.
BMW see this as a possible new segment, a large sedan positioned above the 7er A beautiful looking car with a unique lower sleeker shape than a 7er (think CLS in the upper segment) with 4 drs, following the RFK idea with rear suicide doors , a shallow glass area , small rear overhang thin slits for headlights wide BMW twin-kidney grille, large wheels - whilst the design will be cutting edge and as fresh as the proposed 2012 launch.
Technology and architecture will not be any different utilising from it's cutting edge philosophy. An all alloy space frame with alumiunium front and rear modules and carbon fibre composite body panels will keep this car seriously lightweight , The floorpan will come direct from modules utilised from the upcoming 7er. BMW would then have it's "Individual" division compose interior options to make it BMW's set alone exclusive choice in it's own segment.
Although in creative discussion several engine choices are being investigated.
With the next 7er BMW are slimming down some options available the top line V12 will only be offered with the LWB only due to poor sales of the current SWB V12 .
The next V12 being developed By BMW will incorporate BMW's turbo technology - one option could be leaving a Naturally aspirated V12 in the 7er and focusing the Twin-turbo V12 for their top line project. Another option is letting a Specialist (Alpina) fettle the V12 for the new car.
One strategy that would earn BMW serious environmental credentials would be the addition of a Hydrogen "9" A social concious luxury sedan for the environmetally concerned.
One thing that has been made abundantly clear is that it remains a single model - a BMW with No M-variant.
A soon to be approved model will be BMW's Motorsport achievement With the PLS project It would be BMW's technological flagship - It would be the car that would bring BMW back into contention with luxury car buyers who see BMW and Mercedes as lower class, less exclusive everyman brands.
It will also be the car that will bridge BMW to RR unless BMW acquire Aston Martin.
Then all bets will be off....

siko · 09-24-2006, 07:13 PM

Makes no sense to me? Does BMW need a car like that?

EnI · 09-24-2006, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siko

Makes no sense to me? Does BMW need a car like that?

BMW Group need it. A bridge models between BMW & Rolls-Royce. So - having no Bentley, and with no Aston Martin acquisation, a top BMW model will have to play a role of that bridge. Something AM Rapide-like.

siko · 09-24-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EniLab

BMW Group need it. A bridge models between BMW & Rolls-Royce. So - having no Bentley, and with no Aston Martin acquisation, a top BMW model will have to play a role of that bridge. Something AM Rapide-like.

I'm not entirely convinced. I just hope they don't wear themselves thin.

Matt · 09-24-2006, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siko

I'm not entirely convinced. I just hope they don't wear themselves thin.

I second that.

dOmInIX · 09-25-2006, 03:15 PM

This was my impression done 2 years ago, I know it's dumb, and I don't know where the hell did I get and idea to draw 9-series!?

Seems like a nice future for BMW!

Imhotep Evil · 09-27-2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

I second that.

I third that.

BMW is about premium sportyness.
Just how sporty would a Flying Spur competitor be, even if light weight ?!

Sorry, but priority no. 1 IMO, would be a lighter/ASF, more dynamical 7er, with a twin clutch gearbox.

Taking on Bentley too, is just wrong.

GrimReaper · 09-27-2006, 09:01 AM

IMHO, the Germans seem to have lost the point.
MB, BMW and even to a certain extent Audi, are just expanding their range too quickly and with horrendous results.

I mean, R Classe, GL, G, M, and all coming in at relatively the same market position.

BMW coming with X3, X6 (pointless or what???????), 9, two variants of 7.
Why not just make the 9 the second variant of the 7 instead of a separate car altogether, though I feel it will share most of the components from the F01 7.

THese companies should rather focus on what line-up they have now and concentrate their engineers on fixing faulty transmissions, thousands of recalls etc.

God, GCM (M= manufacturers) are starting to piss me off.

Imhotep Evil · 09-27-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimReaper

IMHO, the Germans seem to have lost the point.
MB, BMW and even to a certain extent Audi, are just expanding their range too quickly and with horrendous results.

Nope. To survive you need to grow profitably, witch is what the germans are doing. If not they'd be just another bunch of dead companies.
In the automotive world you don't stand still, you go up or you go down.
Just plain logic.

Quote:

I mean, R Classe, GL, G, M, and all coming in at relatively the same market position.

Yep, MB has done mistakes, like the GL, R klasse, but the M is a base product.

Quote:

BMW coming with X3, X6 (pointless or what???????), 9, two variants of 7.
Why not just make the 9 the second variant of the 7 instead of a separate car altogether, though I feel it will share most of the components from the F01 7.

X3, how is a car that sold over 100 000 units per year at a premium price pointless ?!
X6, who knows ?!
There's been longwheel base versions for the 7er for decades. Welcome to the real world Neo...argh GrimReaper.
The point of this is diferentiation. People (when reaching a certain finacial level) want individuality/diferentiation/costumisation in their products.
And for now, we don't even know if there will be a 9 series.

Quote:

THese companies should rather focus on what line-up they have now and concentrate their engineers on fixing faulty transmissions, thousands of recalls etc.

Recently that's one of the thing they've been doing. Quality/reliability of german manufacturers has has gone up.
So thousands of recalls vs. 2.3 million recals of the Toyota group (Toyota/Lexus/Scion) is bad ?!

Quote:

God, GCM (M= manufacturers) are starting to piss me off.

Yay...
Oh well, there's always an alternative or two.

GrimReaper · 09-27-2006, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imhotep Evil

Nope. To survive you need to grow profitably, witch is what the germans are doing. If not they'd be just another bunch of dead companies.
In the automotive world you don't stand still, you go up or you go down.
Just plain logic.

Yep, MB has done mistakes, like the GL, R klasse, but the M is a base product.

X3, how is a car that sold over 100 000 units per year at a premium price pointless ?!
X6, who knows ?!
There's been longwheel base versions for the 7er for decades. Welcome to the real world Neo...argh GrimReaper.
The point of this is diferentiation. People (when reaching a certain finacial level) want individuality/diferentiation/costumisation in their products.
And for now, we don't even know if there will be a 9 series.

Recently that's one of the thing they've been doing. Quality/reliability of german manufacturers has has gone up.
So thousands of recalls vs. 2.3 million recals of the Toyota group (Toyota/Lexus/Scion) is bad ?!

Yay...
Oh well, there's always an alternative or two.

Imhotep, if you don't have basic etiquette then please refrain from posting. I never posted anythinhg against any particular brand showing favouritism or even posting anything personally against any members here.

I'm sure most of the people here would agree with me that the companies are expanding their line-ups too quickly.

Just because a car sells in hundreds of thousands doesnt mean its a good car. In fact, it (X3) is one of the worst BMW's to come in a very long time.

Even the 1st Gen A Klasse sold in the millions though do you still see it as a car which was even worthy of the MB name at all????

Who said its a thousand recalls only?? I can for a fact vouch that the M5 in itself has had 3+ recalls and all this when I'm paying more than 100,000 Euros for a car. MB recently had a recall with its ML classe, R Klasse and SLR. BMW with their 5,6 & 7 series with all of them premiumly priced cars.

I DO NOT object to the second variant of the 7. Infact, I think its a great idea since it gives the customer precisely what you stated- Differentiation. I DO however object to a 9 series as stated already.

Don't worry, I won't be looking at your sponsor anymore for my cars since they've given me nothing but terrible service. I for one have nothing against the products, I just said that its the BoD just spoiling it for everyone.

EnI · 09-27-2006, 12:33 PM

We should know automotive business is very complex one. From idea, business case, giving project a green light, design, development, production, marketing, sales, after sales services etc. All this are phases which are very complex, need a lot of know-how and - a lot of time.

Today all these phases cost a lot. So a company has to make a lot of revenues to have enough money for R&D. And therefore the company has to expand their business / model line. Also they should be aware of future trends, and bring new interesting product to customers - otherwise they become ... Ford.

All models you have listed are a success for the companies. Neither of them failed.

Look - even Porsche is expanding: Cayenne SUV, Panamera "4-door coupe", etc ...

Yes, to quick expansion brings problems - usually in fall of quality. Even Toyota has experienced that recently.

But, Grim, I get your point. Sometimes such expansion of model line can hurt the brand image - especially when expanding down-market or in segments not compatible with brand image.

But that was not the case with German manufacturers / brand: non of them experienced damage to brand image. More due to worse product quality then to model line portfolio. Mind that MB image was hurt due quality problems - especially in all classes, not so much due introduction of A-class.

Regarding 9-series: scott just said it was an idea - it would be decided about in few months. We do not even now whether it will get a green line. They are just considering it.

BMW Group have always ambitions in sub-RR segment: therefore their plan was to acquire Bentley as well in late 90's. Now seeing Bentley being very success full, and Aston as well. They are revived the plans to enter this segment. Either with some upscaled BMW models above 7er (8er, 9er, Z8 etc), or now when a chance occured - with acquiring Aston Martin.

Mind that this segment is very profitable - profit margins are very high, and even sales volumes are counted in few thousends.

Mind VAG has Bentley & Lamorghini in this segment (Buggati is more a RR competitor), MB has a CL-class & SLR, and Maybach - maybe even with upcoming baby model. While BMW Group have no models in this segment - they want to keep RR highly exclusive, while BMW or perhaps Aston Martin to fill the gap between 7er & RR models (Phantom line).

It will be stupid not to enter this segment. With BMW or Aston Martin brand ...

GrimReaper · 09-27-2006, 01:17 PM

Eni: I completely understand that the companies need money. I was all for Porsche to enter the SUV market and am still hoping that Lamborghini to enter the SUV market (though that is never going to happen).

My main gripe is that these companies are having serious issues in theyre existing cars since theyre being pushed into production without thorough testing/engineering. The M5 is having tons of problems. Just go to M5Board and see. The 335i is being reported as getting overheated and shut down. MB is still getting recalls. The 63 engine apparently died just 60 miles from the dealership. The 5,6,7 series are having recalls.

Expand your models, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF GETTING OUT TERRIBLE PRODUCTS!!!!

GrimReaper · 09-27-2006, 01:19 PM

P.S. I'm all for BMW using the Aston Brand and its engineers to build a 9 series. AND I'm all for BMW buying Aston. That would be like a dream come true. A sexy sports car with better build and drive.

EnI · 09-27-2006, 01:52 PM

Agree. Expansion should not come with loosing product quality. But ...

Manufacturers pushing their suppliers to develop & deliver some parts in a very short time is the main issue. Especially the electronics.

Mind that premium brands are introdcing some fresh cutting edge tech in their cars. And this tech is not proved so much, and therefore more failure prone.

Also: German car makers are still known for their great machanics engineering, while electronics engineering is not their main field. Japanese car makers are better here.

Regarding E63 engine, 335i engine, M5 SMG III, etc - all that are isolated problems. When producing tens of thousends of cars it is not unusally some of them is a lemon. Even Lexus has ones. No quality control is so perfect to find all the flaws before leaving the factory.

Mind that many of recall are done due precaution in manner better to change / improve some part / system which in some cases performes unusually than risk it fails completely.

Changing parts / software in recall actions does not necessarily mean those parts are really flawed, but they had some chances to get flawed. So manufacturers change them before something happen.

But still ... Better quality control & more development tests are still welcome.

NarutoRamen · 09-27-2006, 02:07 PM

Eni...I personally think that the 9 should not be a four door sedan..rather they should upmarket the 7 and have a R8 competitor itself...BMW has everything except for a Performance car...notice I said Performance! It should be a no compromise R8 competitor priced around 95-120K...that would be awesome!

EnI · 09-27-2006, 02:35 PM

Mid-engine platform would be simply to expensive: to develop, to produce, to sell. It doesn't fit in BMW development, production & marketing / sales model.

Also: Audi need such image-making supercar, BMW do not.

BMW said before their performance models will more "classic" - they are thinking of Z8 / 8er revival as well.

Regarding possible 9er: as Scott said they are thinking of 4-door coupe-ish sedan, not a Bentley Continental Flying Spur direct competitor. Think more of AM Rapide & Panamera competitor - but more sedan-ish. An upscaled CLS kind a car by BMW.

Imhotep Evil · 09-27-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimReaper

Imhotep, if you don't have basic etiquette then please refrain from posting. I never posted anythinhg against any particular brand showing favouritism or even posting anything personally against any members here.

I never replyed to you, so as to biasly defend some brand.

Quote:

I'm sure most of the people here would agree with me that the companies are expanding their line-ups too quickly.

There is no alternative.
It's a naive fantasy to think otherwise.

Quote:

Just because a car sells in hundreds of thousands doesnt mean its a good car. In fact, it (X3) is one of the worst BMW's to come in a very long time.

Even the 1st Gen A Klasse sold in the millions though do you still see it as a car which was even worthy of the MB name at all????

Agreed, agreed.
But, FL X3 and sec gen. A klasse are better.
I agreed than expansion shouldn't come at the expense of crapy products.

Quote:

Who said its a thousand recalls only?? I can for a fact vouch that the M5 in itself has had 3+ recalls and all this when I'm paying more than 100,000 Euros for a car. MB recently had a recall with its ML classe, R Klasse and SLR. BMW with their 5,6 & 7 series with all of them premiumly priced cars.

Isolated incidents. Everyone has them. Eni explained it better. Go at any brands forums and you'll find stuff like that.

Quote:

I DO NOT object to the second variant of the 7. Infact, I think its a great idea since it gives the customer precisely what you stated- Differentiation. I DO however object to a 9 series as stated already.

I also objected to the 9 series.

Quote:

I for one have nothing against the products, I just said that its the BoD just spoiling it for everyone.

Again, there is no alternative. Expansion is crucial.

NarutoRamen · 09-27-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EniLab

BMW said before their performance models will more "classic" - they are thinking of Z8 / 8er revival as well.

Regarding possible 9er: as Scott said they are thinking of 4-door coupe-ish sedan, not a Bentley Continental Flying Spur direct competitor. Think more of AM Rapide & Panamera competitor - but more sedan-ish. An upscaled CLS kind a car by BMW.

Well, I didn't mean exactly a replica of the R8 with the mid-engine layout...BMW are good enough at achieving 50/50 split with their FR layout and AUDI are not because of the QUATTRO. So, I'm pretty sure that a car based on the M6 chassis can do the trick...but at the same time the Revival of 8er would be just the car as well and market it as a high-end performance coupe...so it goes up against the DB9 in sorts...wouldn't that work?

If they are trying to make a Rapide type of approch then may-be it is a good idea but I'll rather they made a coupe instead. As you know Eni...the only reason I'm criticizing them is because I love BMW..hell I work for a BMW Motorrad Dealer! WOO!!

EnI · 09-27-2006, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NarutoRamen

Well, I didn't mean exactly a replica of the R8 with the mid-engine layout...BMW are good enough at achieving 50/50 split with their FR layout and AUDI are not because of the QUATTRO. So, I'm pretty sure that a car based on the M6 chassis can do the trick...but at the same time the Revival of 8er would be just the car as well and market it as a high-end performance coupe...so it goes up against the DB9 in sorts...wouldn't that work?

If they are trying to make a Rapide type of approch then may-be it is a good idea but I'll rather they made a coupe instead. As you know Eni...the only reason I'm criticizing them is because I love BMW..hell I work for a BMW Motorrad Dealer! WOO!!

Do not worry. High performance classic coupe is coming: either in 8er or Z8 coupe form. Unless they acquire Aston Martin.

9er is completely different concept: a mix of high performance coupe and ultra-luxury sedan. And it isn't mentioned as alternative of performance coupe but an addition.

bmwownage · 09-28-2006, 07:57 AM

Firstly how many of these will be sold anyway?? If the 7series isn't even hot selling compared to rivals, building something upwards of 7er can only be less successful... I would've guessed it would be MB who might build a upper Sclass to bridge them between the Maybach57, but BMW??? Don't know what they're thinking lately, building models that just simply don't suit their brand image which took all its history to establish... If they build a nice big coupe to rival Continental GT then that would be better, but to build a large sedan is just... ???

EnI · 09-28-2006, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmwownage

Firstly how many of these will be sold anyway?? If the 7series isn't even hot selling compared to rivals, building something upwards of 7er can only be less successful... I would've guessed it would be MB who might build a upper Sclass to bridge them between the Maybach57, but BMW??? Don't know what they're thinking lately, building models that just simply don't suit their brand image which took all its history to establish... If they build a nice big coupe to rival Continental GT then that would be better, but to build a large sedan is just... ???

Wher did you get the info 7er is not selling well????????

It's true W221 S-class is a cas for itself, but 7er is right in 2nd place ...

Worldwide sales. While specific markets figures can vary.

The Artist · 09-28-2006, 08:43 AM

yep i agree with bmwownage..i wont pay like 170K plus euro for a bimmer
it gotta be damn speciall.. cars in that range of price are no joke..

EnI · 09-28-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Artist

yep i agree with bmwownage..i wont pay like 170K plus euro for a bimmer
it gotta be damn speciall.. cars in that range of price are no joke..

But ...

These days some are paying over $100k / or even over €100k for a bimmer - while a decade or two ago this would be considerd impossible.

So, in 10 year 170k euro bimmer will sound as common as today a 100k euro bimmer.

But still ... IMO it would be better to have separate brand (Aston Martin!!!) in this segment.

PanterroR · 09-28-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EniLab

Wher did you get the info 7er is not selling well????????

I told already to some - don't bother!

The Artist · 09-28-2006, 09:27 AM

well ofcourse 10 years from now..maybe a chewing gum would cost you 2 euros..
if so its possible that i would pay 170K for a bimmer
but today.. no way..im sorry

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