What will happen to the CSL brand?

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EnI

EnI

Piston Pioneer
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Giannis said:
Bottom line is this: Make both the Y1 or whatever it is called, but please make a CSL :D

Just my two cents!
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Regarding Porsche vs. BMW ... BMW isn't on the same image level with Porsche. Porsche is still considered more luxury than BMW, and even more sporty than BMW. Porsche is all about sports cars, not sporty cars like BMW. That's the difference.

Regarding CSL ... Yes, I would also like to see a CSL model as a halo car. Much more than some exotic super car.

But just like M3 CSL ... there were a few hundreds of them , and that's it. Extremely expensive cars. Collectors grabbed them, and the cars are sitting in their garages. Hardly a car available for broader base of driving enthusiasts. So, you want the car to be developed just for the sake of it?

Because a CSL for €40k is just a wet dream.

My 2 cents. :usa7uh:
 
You are mostly correct about the CSL, but let me explain my opinion further.

You have writen lately that modern BMWs have become/ are becoming softer, because customers want so. I guess that this means there are more customers that want a softer BMW, than customers that want a harder BMW.

Why not satisfy both? Make normal BMWs soft, yet sporty enough to retain the brand image, and make also an even more sporty version of the normal 1,3 and 5 series, let's say named "si". For example there could be 320i and 320si, for those who want the same package, but not that soft.

On the other hand, seeing it from BMWs point of view, this could mean that BMW marketing is forcing some customers to opt for the sport suspension package. Those customers, though, wouldn't opt (pay extra money) if the car wasn't that soft, yet with the same driving dynamics.

I drive a Volvo, because I want something soft. But there are days, that I wish my daily drive is a bit more fun, a bit more sport oriented, a bit more hard. I want the car to be one step towards sport, not half.

Then again, why not keep the same sporty character of eg. the E46 and add better quality materials and more luxury? This way, you can achieve even better your goal. Keep the core BMW values, and add more luxury to them.

IMO, by making the normal car series softer, it becomes very dangerous, to loose the sport essence, the BMW's core value.

I know that I am not very clear, but we get tons of new info the last days, and I have many thoughts to sort out in my head.

:t-cheers:
 
EnI said:
But just like M3 CSL ... there were a few hundreds of them , and that's it. Extremely expensive cars. Collectors grabbed them, and the cars are sitting in their garages. Hardly a car available for broader base of driving enthusiasts. So, you want the car to be developed just for the sake of it?

Because a CSL for €40k is just a wet dream.
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From what I have heard there were about 1,400 of them made and many, many have been used very hard on track (some cars have even died on track) and as a daily driver or second car. Just look at the classifides, there are many cars with 60,000+ kms on the clock. Now, that is not your typical collectors item sitting in a garage.

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I think a CSL at the same price as the last one would be good enough. Based on the 1-series, of course.
 
dr Dunkel said:
From what I have heard there were about 1,400 of them made and many, many have been used very hard on track (some cars have even died on track) and as a daily driver or second car. Just look at the classifides, there are many cars with 60,000+ kms on the clock. Now, that is not your typical collectors item sitting in a garage.
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I just wanted to add that I don't think the CSL should be marginalized just because BMW will not make another.
 
EnI said:
Because a CSL for €40k is just a wet dream.

My 2 cents. :usa7uh:
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But you now buy a used one for around €50,000. And the car never was 'extremely expensive'. CLK DTM AMG is extremely expensive. Twice as much as the CSL was when new :usa7uh:

BMW E92 M3 CSL is very much needed right now. Period.
 
The M3 CSL was about €85k when presented. For that you got a Porsche GT3 beater for the price of a base Carerra. That can never be regarded as expensive.

I don't know why Eni mentioned €40k, no one would ever believe a new CSL would cost that little.
 
^ Exactly. It only is an expensive car for people who think it's a regular 3er coupé.
It's like the Nissan GTR vs a Porsche 911 Turbo; the performance for half the price.
 
I would really like to know what kind of margin BMW had on those almost 1,400 cars that were sold. It can't have been much, but then again, this was a very special car and it drew a lot of attention in the media at the time.
 
^ Yep, the M3 CSL will forever be remembered. E92 M3 too, but in a probably not so good way; 'fat heavy V8 M3'
 
klier said:
^ Yep, the M3 CSL will forever be remembered. E92 M3 too, but in a probably not so good way; 'fat heavy V8 M3'
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Nah, the E92 M3 will forever be remembered because it's the last ///M with an NA engine (ever).

"Fat and heavy", "no passion." We seem to think of different cars...:t-hands:


Best regards,
south
 
Ok that, and the fact that it will be the only M3 ever with a V8. But it will not be remembered like the E46 will be remembered. E92 needs M3 CSL. Competition nowadays is too fierce not to make one. It's the only way to make the M3 really stand out in 2009.
 
The problem with an E92 CSL is that BMW will have to work much harder to put enough daylight between the regular M3 and a CSL variant to achieve tangible gains compared with the E46.

Carbon Fibre roof panel - er, standard. Trick, race-tech transmission - oh, that's available as a standard option now too...

Seriously, BMW would have to do a helluva lot to the E92 CSL to differentiate it commensurately - a la E46 - from the E92. Now, talking frankly among friends - how much business sense does that make in times like these?
 
Yes, you are right. Maybe they should give up on this evolution thing... :D
 
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't do it - I'd love to see a CSL version with 325 kW and 420 Nm S65 and lightweight gubbins an' stuff...

But, i m o, there's a time and a place for everything.
 
How's Chris Harris' comments on DR Chris Harris laments the gradual erosion of the mighty M Power BMW about the same issue:

As BMW itself proved, if you’re going to pimp an M car, you need to make it very different from the standard machine. The 2003 CSL was considerably different to the standard E46 M3, but not enough to justify the extra cost, and as a result it depreciated faster than the Zimbabwean Dollar. It also had the now-traditional margarine brakes.
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Pretty similar to mine no?
 
martinbo said:
How's Chris Harris' comments on DR Chris Harris laments the gradual erosion of the mighty M Power BMW about the same issue:



Pretty similar to mine no?
Click to expand...
Yep, but that's where Eni's comments on different brand perception compared to Porsche really make sense. Without a doubt, BMW could build a CSL that's stunning in every way. But, and that's a big one, people are not willing to pay the price. Assuming that car costs at least 100k € many will say "it's still a 3 series and it's still a BMW; no way am I spending that amount of money on a 3 Series BMW." In my opinion such a point of view is rather narrow minded, but what can we change about? :t-hands:

My understanding is that BMW realized this for the most part, so they start to make the best out of their position. You don't have to compete with Porsche because, no matter how good the cars are, for the same money people will leave them behind for a P car. Best example to me is the Z4. BMW had the choice to move it towards two different targets, either towards the Boxster or towards the SLK. Well, the rest is known...

"Don't hate the player, hate the game."


Best regards,
south
 
martinbo said:
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't do it - I'd love to see a CSL version with 325 kW and 420 Nm S65 and lightweight gubbins an' stuff...

But, i m o, there's a time and a place for everything.
Click to expand...

I agree, this is the worst time in a long while to talk about this type of car. No doubt.

And I have no recipe for how to do it, I just think that it is a lovely motoring thaught. I don't think a new CSL will have to be based on the M3, even if the engine would be a great starting point. Maybe the 1-series coupe? That way it would not interfere with how the M3 is perceived in the hierarchy. It would be smaller, and lighter to begin with and it could easily do without a rear seat and it is not nearly as weight optimized as the M3 already is.

Audi is doing their RS-models and Mercedes is doing their Black Series... also great motoring thaugts but not really how I like it.
 
^ Yeah south, I agree completely. Ultimately it boils down to this:

BMW M3 CSL - the people who want it aren't the people who will buy it.
 

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Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, abbreviated as BMW is a German multinational manufacturer of luxury vehicles and motorcycles headquartered in Munich, Bavaria, Germany. The company was founded in 1916 as a manufacturer of aircraft engines, which it produced from 1917 to 1918 and again from 1933 to 1945.
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