Auto Express: Ferrari 458 Italia vs McLaren MP4-12C

Mr.Ree said:

Looks like Auto Express had more luck with the 458 this year than in 2010 where the SLS beat it by a second on the same track (1:00.6 SLS vs 1:01.6 458).

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emve said:

The actual time of 458 from the last year was 60,1s. It was faster than SLS just like in any other test so far. There was a mistake in the video, which showed 1:01,6. This time 458 improved by 0,9s to 59,2s likely thanks to Super Sport tires.

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mini_cooper4 said:

As I said before... braking is the weakest point of the Macca.
I won't consider buying one... MP4-12C... not! The thrill factor is not good enough for a super car too
Any news on the Scuderia ?
Will it be launched 2 years after the standard one as it was the case with the F430 ?

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Had an opportunity to test drive an MP4-12C today.

It is every bit as good as I imagined it would be and completely matched my expectations. I owned a 458 Italia for a bit... The McLaren is in direct competition with the Italia both on paper and as I found out today behind the wheel as well.

Blazing fast, feels just a tad faster than the Italia by the seat of the pants. Feels a bit less edgy and nervous and the few hundred lbs difference in the weight is noticeable. The MP4 is and feels a bit lighter.

Strangely enough, while it feels a bit more forgiving, softer sprung and more compliant, the MP4 feels just a tad more planted when pushed. The track mode is less stiff than the race mode in Italia overall but the MP4 feels more confidence inspiring. I drove the MP4 on the streets so of course all I can say relates to spirited driving on the street, not at 10/10 on the track.

Dual clutch tranny seems to be on par with the Italia. Brakes are stupendous just like the Italia.

Interior is quite nice and clutter free. Dihedral doors are cool and getting in and out is not as bad as it may look.

Steering is razor sharp with lots of feedback, IMHO, just as good as the Italia.

A really fun car to drive if not quite as stimulating in terms of cabin motor sound. The Italia puts an orchestra behind your head, it is a symphony of motor noises, the MP4 sounds great in track mode, especially at WOT but not quite as intoxicating or exotic.

I did like the MP4 better in person than pictures.

Overall, a fantastic car!

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I drove the car today as well, simply unbelievable. Extremely well balanced and capable. The ergonomics are great and the car is comfortable at low speeds and so-so roads. My drive was a real eye-openner. Big hats off to the engineers at Mclaren. I echo the sentiments about the cars appearance is better in person. Coming from the Aston world, it's high praise to say that this car has an elegance that the Italians lack.

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i have a buddy in the uk who owns a silver one, and his experience over a bit longer period of time basically confirms all of the above....quite comfortable and liveable for daily use, but with amazing performance and handling on tap whenever you want it....i hope to get a chance to drive his one day...

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Well I own one and I think 'a few minor issues' is misleading at best. I have documented here the full list of things wrong with my car and spoke to other owners who have a near identical list. It's also worth repeating that as I write, Mclaren do not have a fix for a single one of these problems. To me, that's just not OK.

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I'm happy to agree to disagree but I don't think I'm in the minority. I know two owners who aren't on PH who aren't happy and a third who has already backed his car because of the problems. Then there's the 3 of us mentioned above. So I know 6 in total who aren't happy, one who has already backed his car and two others who are in the process of doing the same.

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Its unfortunately a bit more than software issues. My car is currently back with McLaren with a tech from the factory looking at the numerous non-software issues, and my business partners car was collected today, along with the software faults that all cars have, his has gone back for all hardware related faults/failures and paint defects.

Whilst the car is superb to drive and be in as a driving experience, the customer satisfaction experience still leaves room for improvement, which to be fair McLaren are working on. However, with the issues our two cars have (numerous stupid software faults aside, two of which keep putting my car in limp mode) have I do sometimes wonder what their test engineers were doing for 5+ years.

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It's being collected tomorrow. I did try to live with it for another week or two after I posted that I was going to sell it but the problems just got worse and more frequent. On Saturday, at different times, I was told by the computer I had 4 punctures, the airbags weren't working, the air brake wasn't working, the air brake then got stuck, and the car told me that the passenger seat belt was not fastened even though no passenger was in the car.

Provided they get rid of the car quickly and I'm not out of pocket, I am prepared to give Mclaren and the dealer another chance at a later date, but I get a very strong sense from the people I talk to there, that whilst they hope to have some fixes in the next 2-3 weeks, they are a LONG way from fixes for all of this stuff and the fact that production has now stopped highlights just how far away they are.

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Mr.Ree said:

Interesting that he doesn't detail the hardware faults. The software faults are known about because they had a software contractor who turned out to be useless and they had to bin them at the last minute. Software issues are par for the course with new cars, I don't think a finished version of Windows has ever been released.

By comparison in Evo Issue 163 page 153, the newly acquired 458 has undergone 2 fuel sender faults, the first unit having been replaced and is currently also sufferring from a sticking exhaust valve and a misfire and the seat bolster is already torn. The side mirror glass also cracked from vibrations. Then you have the disco inferno variants. The 458 having been out several years, so I don't see it as a problem that an innovative new car is having some teething issues when longer-running competitors are still outstanding fixes. I'm sure the problems won't persist for as long as Porsche's RMS issue. Damn that must have been going for over a decade now.

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Guibo said:

Perhaps his hardware faults are the same as the other guy's. The cause for the stop in production is hardware-related (faulty brake hose connectors).
Question is, of those ~3000 458s on the road, how many have as many faults? From the posts of those McLaren owners, it seems there are more problems affecting more of the percentage of cars on the road. I think 458s on the ground and running is not yet quite two years, but having cars burn after so many decades of experience is also inexcusable.
Porsche's RMS problem doesn't put the car into limp home mode, nor does it keep an owner from opening his car door. Neither Porsche nor Ferrari made the bold claims to quality that McLaren did. If McLaren had simply shut up and not mentioned that, that would be something else. When the claim is made, and execution is left wanting, then it's perfectly reasonable to criticize the execution against said claims.

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Guibo said:

like this was part of their COTY comparo, so the timing suggests this is the MP4-12C with the updates previously mentioned

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Mr.Ree said:

I don't honestly know. A lot of the 3000 458s on the road have faced flame expiration and many others have died due to natural causes. Simon George's 458 seems to be a particularly cretinous little creature and you'd think they'd have given him a good example with him being a journalist. I personally pay very little attention to internet-based reliability concerns. I give internet-based reliability topics about the same regard as tin-foil-helmet essays. It seems that no new volume production car ever gets launched these days without the same order of posts.

As regards the Porsche RMS issue, what you say isn't necessarily true. It depends how long you leave it and how large the leak gets (they also had PDK software isssues when it was introduced). I speak for most drivers when I say that it's generally a bad thing when oil leaves the car outside of routine changes, simply because you have to replace it if nothing else. It's also unacceptable when visting friends and relatives to effectively have your car urinating in their yard. One would expect better decorum even from something with 4 legs and the fact that the issue has persisted since sometime last century is a little ridiculous for a manufacturer with Porsche's reputation. Whatever McLaren's current issues I'm sure that they won't still be here in 2025 as the 911 RMS issue undoubtedly will.

Looks like the online poll put the MP4-12C on top according to the Auto Express article. I guess that's the problem with judgement, it varies from one person to the next.

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Guibo said:

A lot of 458's have burned? Possibly. How many do you mean by "a lot"?
As for Simon George's car, he's only personally had the problem of running out of fuel due to a faulty sender. That's one fault. Not the 11 or whatever counted by that one McLaren owner. Secondly, his car is used as part of an exotic car driving company. Thus the 7,300 miles in only 6 months. We don't know if the front-end rattling he's talking about now is a result of a customer going off, as in a previous entry about his Murcielago. This is very different from McLaren owners who are just taking delivery now and finding so many faults with relatively low miles compared to Simon George's 458.

The RMS leaks tend to be gradual and get worse over time. They do not render the car inoperable as a stuck door solenoid would. I think you keep overlooking the picture here. This is not simply about all new cars having problems. All new cars don't make the same bold claims. If Ron Dennis makes a claim about his car, are we not allowed to make a statement on the nature of that claim's delivery?
"Sometime last century." Nice hyperbole. That was only 11 years ago.

AutoExpress is based in the UK and I'll bet has a primarily UK viewership. What does that online poll have to do with anything other than showing that mag readers love stats and just might vote for the home team product. Try the test again in Italy and see the result.

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Mr.Ree said:

Yeah, no. read Issue 163 of Evo. The fuel sender has failed again. The exhaust valve is stuck and the car is misfiring and the seat bolster has torn. I counts 5 faults in about 1 month on a car that's been out several years.

If you don't replace the oil that leaks from the RMS then the car will become inoperable.

All new cars don't make the same bold claims? Errr... yeah they do. What about the 220mph LFA that was going to cost $200k? What the hell happened to that eh? The 'un-paralleled Porsche quality' yet just about every car suffers a leaking RMS at some point. Ferrari? Their reliability can't even be taken seriously and that statement doesn't just apply to the 458, it's an historical fact.

When another car at the same price point beats every single MP4-12C time then you can say that they haven't set new benchmarks. At present no car in that price range is quicker to 150mph. Overall it's lap times are also faster than those of the competition. Ride quality - unparalleled in this category. Ergonomics - unparalleled. Fuel economy - unparalleled. Emissions - unparalled. It's quite a big deal to tick all those boxes.

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