The new M Performance automobiles range

[martinbo]

Personally I think it's great that BMW have followed Audi's path to offer a sub M brand to sit between their normal cars and the true Ms. Why it's taken so long is the thing I'm complaining about but at least it's better late than never.

Seriously? A little tit for tat retort on who's following whom? How banal for a man of your standing.

 

[Deckhook]

Yes I believe that. Do I know it for a fact? No. Do you have any facts to the contrary? No. The fact of the matter is that in 2008 BMW released the production N63. It's 2012 now and Audi only showed their engine in late 2011. So that's three years earlier to market. Cylinder Deactivation and active engine mounts to compensate: differentiators rather than time-to-market delays.

Unlike yourself I don't live in a world where everything is black and white, you are right about you nor I know this as fact. Can an engine be designed from scratch in less than 3 years and I might add that this engine was known about sooner than 3 years, I suppose it's possible but without knowing for sure that this was the case I would have refrained from making the statement which was my point.

This is typical of your style - saying that Audi could've been working on a similar system - bringing focus-robbing conjecture and imaginings into the discussion. Fact: BMW pioneered the hot-side-inside to market. Fact: Audi followed BMW by introducing a near identical solution in complete contrast to their long-standing turbo'd Vee engine tradition three years after BMW. Anything else is supposition until proven and corroborated.

The only FACT we can be 100% certain of is that BMW got it to market first and that Audi followed with a similar system. Will cylinder deactivation and active engine mounting have delayed it's arrival, probably but I nor you can say as to how long.

 

[Deckhook]

Seriously? A little tit for tat retort on who's following whom? How banal for a man of your standing.

Well maybe BMW had this sub M branding in the works for several years, who knows, all I know is it's great that they finally seen fit to release it because I think this will be a hugely profitable venture for them.

 

[Monster]

I don't disagree with a single point Martin has made but one small part of that lengthy post does bother me, though BMW were obviously first with their turbo configuration which you rightly pointed out how can you make the swipping statement that it's has been copied, given the length of time the development of an engine takes from idea to release do you really believe that Audi weren't already working on a similar system at the same time and is it not conceiveable that the only reason it didn't arrive earlier is it's more complexed cylinder deactivation system?

Racing teams in Formula 1 or in the Le Mans series take 1 to 2 years to design, built, test and approve a brand new engine, so I think it is realistic for Audi to come up with a new engine within the 3 year period, and because this engine will be shared with Bentley, it is highly likely that Audi has full access to the resources and talents within the VW empire.

Unlike yourself I don't live in a world where everything is black and white, you are right about you nor I know this as fact. Can an engine be designed from scratch in less than 3 years and I might add that this engine was known about sooner than 3 years, I suppose it's possible but without knowing for sure that this was the case I would have refrained from making the statement which was my point.

The only FACT we can be 100% certain of is that BMW got it to market first and that Audi followed with a similar system. Will cylinder deactivation and active engine mounting have delayed it's arrival, probably but I nor you can say as to how long.

Unlike yourself I don't live in a world with fairies and unicorns and god knows what else. In our world facts and logical thinking matters.

 

[Deckhook]

Racing teams in Formula 1 or in the Le Mans series take 1 to 2 years to design, built, test and approve a brand new engine, so I think it is realistic for Audi to come up with a new engine within the 3 year period, and because this engine will be shared with Bentley, it is highly likely that Audi has full access to the resources and talents within the VW empire.

How can you compare F1 with production manufacturing, the two are worlds apart.

In our world facts and logical thinking matters.

Monster you are missing the point it's not something that you are I can confirm as a absolute fact so why claim it as such. Where is the facts that Audi weren't in the development process? You are jumping to the conclusion that they weren't, not you nor I have that answer. All I am saying that without the evidence to prove otherwise it is simply an opinion that they copied BMW's system. The only FACTS are BMW were first to production and Audi followed after them.

P.S.
If you feel better by take pot shots at me for highlighting this discrepancy then go ahead I have super thick skin.

 

[chonkoa]

. Can an engine be designed from scratch in less than 3 years and I might add that this engine was known about sooner than 3 years, I suppose it's possible but without knowing for sure that this was the case I would have refrained from making the statement which was my point. .

Can an engine be designed and built from scratch within 3 years; YES,NO, it Depends.
YES: if it is a small company which typically have agile processes
NO: if it is a big company that has stifling processes
It Depends: mostly applicable to big companies that have autonomous department such as the "Skunk works" of Lockheed

 

[Giannis]

How can you compare F1 with production manufacturing, the two are worlds apart.

It was just used as a reference argument. Of course they are not comparable. But is it that hard to compare the process of developing an F1 racing engine and a normal Audi series one?

Monster you are missing the point it's not something that you are I can confirm as a absolute fact so why claim it as such. Where is the facts that Audi weren't in the development process? You are jumping to the conclusion that they weren't, not you nor I have that answer. All I am saying that without the evidence to prove otherwise it is simply an opinion that they copied BMW's system. The only FACTS are BMW were first to production and Audi followed after them.

Monster is perfectly on the point.

Fact: Audi showed their hot-side inside engine 3 years after BMW
Fact: 3 years is a considerable time frame for engine development.

So, what do we make of these two facts?

 

[Deckhook]

No denying its 3 years apart, never did deny that fact but claiming they copied without evidence is where I have the problem. No one here can be 100% positive that Audi's engine wasn't in the development stages.

Let's look at the facts; Audi's RS6 and RS7 have been seen testing in March of last year, that's approaching a year ago and that's the RS models not the S6/7 and word of the engines existence goes back several months before that. I just think you guys are to quick to come to this conclusion that Audi copied BMW simply because their engine was released first, there are difference between them it's not a carbon copy.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Seriously? A little tit for tat retort on who's following whom? How banal for a man of your standing.

And how UN-banal of you to get into a slanging match like this. Really out of character and I've no idea why you're doing it. Seriously, I really don't see why everybody seems to read everything deckhook says with such contempt when there are other members who relentlessly post utter nonsense and don't get the same treatment. It's baffling and completely hypocritical.

Back on topic.

 

[martinbo]

We'll see Betty, we'll see... All in good time.

 

[south]

All I'm saying is this: The N63 was officially announced in December 2007, that makes it almost 4 years earlier than Audi's engine.


Best regards,
south

 

[Betty Swollocks]

We'll see Betty, we'll see... All in good time.

And I'm not on anybody's "side". I'm just speaking from my own perspective. Anyway, sorry for posting off-topic.

In that video I posted, Dr Friedrich Nitschke confirms the products will be launched by the end of this month, which tallies with Scott's signiture.

 

[klier]

All I'm saying is this: The N63 was officially announced in December 2007, that makes it almost 4 years earlier than Audi's engine.


Best regards,
south

Yeah, the N63 is actually getting a bit old now
And still competing and winning from the competition. Will be interesting to read how the newest version with 450 hp performs (the one as seen in the 650i GC).

 

[Levi68]

The X6 xDrive50i E71 LCI and 750i F01 LCI will surely get the 450 PS version, which if I am not wrong was already available for all N63 engines as BMW Performance power upgrade. But BMW is also working on a new 4.0l V8 to replace the 4.4l V8. I guess we'll se that engine when the new X6 F16 comes out.

 

[south]

The X6 xDrive50i E71 LCI and 750i F01 LCI will surely get the 450 PS version, which if I am not wrong was already available for all N63 engines as BMW Performance power upgrade.

Nope, the N63Tu also has Valvetronic. It basically inherits the goodies from the S63Tu engine, minus the patented (sorry, Audi) cylinder-bank comprehensive manifold (CCM).


Best regards,
south

 

[Sunny]

No denying its 3 years apart, never did deny that fact but claiming they copied without evidence is where I have the problem. No one here can be 100% positive that Audi's engine wasn't in the development stages.

Let's look at the facts; Audi's RS6 and RS7 have been seen testing in March of last year, that's approaching a year ago and that's the RS models not the S6/7 and word of the engines existence goes back several months before that. I just think you guys are to quick to come to this conclusion that Audi copied BMW simply because their engine was released first, there are difference between them it's not a carbon copy.

Yea let us look at facts - Audi is been making turbo engines for decades. Number of those engines with 'hot side inside' lay out - 0, a big 0. BMW releases a turbo engine with that unconventional lay out. The next turbo engine Audi releases - bham - exact same lay out. Conclusive proof? no, pretty damning? yes.

All I'm saying is this: The N63 was officially announced in December 2007, that makes it almost 4 years earlier than Audi's engine.

Not to mention that most of these big companies probably know what the others are working on probably way before it is publicly announced.

 

[Giannis]

Yea let us look at facts - Audi is been making turbo engines for decades. Number of those engines with 'hot side inside' lay out - 0, a big 0. BMW releases a turbo engine with that unconventional lay out. The next turbo engine Audi releases - bham - exact same lay out. Conclusive proof? no, pretty damning? yes.

Let's also keep in mind, that Audi looked like they were taking a different dirrection regarding forced induction when they reveals their latest 3.0T engine, which is actually supercharged!

 

[klier]

Yea let us look at facts - Audi is been making turbo engines for decades. Number of those engines with 'hot side inside' lay out - 0, a big 0. BMW releases a turbo engine with that unconventional lay out. The next turbo engine Audi releases - bham - exact same lay out. Conclusive proof? no, pretty damning? yes.

I don't see the big deal people are making out of this? We all know Audi has been copying MB and BMW ever since VAG decided to go 'premium'. This is just one of many examples....

 

[Wolfgang]

interesting discussions

Reversing the flow was all the rage a couple years back when emission rules tightened, and in this case diesel emissions. GM planned the 4.5 liter Duramax V8 with reversed flow, probably together with their then engine partner Isuzu and/or Opel? The engine was developed to completion, but then put on hold, as far as I remember, but rumors persist it might be revived? Ford had issues with Navistar/International, and then did develop their own reversed flow V8 -- the Scorpion. Took longer than I thought it would, but finally came to market around 2009 or so.

First Look: Ford's All-New 6.7-Liter V-8 Power Stroke Diesel Engine - PickupTrucks.com News

 

[donkeykong]

Great post!