"Stick shift" vs "Paddle shift" transmissions

[PC Valkyrie]

Well, I checked, and there hasn't been a "manual vs automatic transmission" thread title here on this forum for a couple of years. So I thought I would start one to have members discuss their thoughts on the matter, especially in light of recent cars like the 991 GT3/Turbo and all the recent hypercars (LaFerrari, P1, 918, etc) that do not even offer the option of a stick shift transmission with a clutch pedal.

Some clarifications here first: A "stick shift" transmission is a standard manual transmission where you row through a gated shifter and there is a clutch pedal you have to control with you left foot to engage/disengage the transmission from the engine. A "paddle shift" transmission refers to any of the following where gears can be selected by pulling/pushing on paddles/buttons manually without the use of a clutch pedal: a classic torque converter automatic transmission which can be operated in manual mode, an automated single clutch transmission where the clutch engagement/disengagement is controlled by a computer, and the very popular dual clutch transmission where clutch engages/disengages also is controlled by a computer. All the choices here allow for MANUAL selection of gears if one desires, so the main difference is whether the driver controls the clutch or not with his left foot/leg.

First, I want to poll the members here about which type of car fan they are with regards to transmissions (taken in part from a recent article in Excellence).

1) Die hard traditionalists: you are a stick shift driver, have decent to excellent skill in driving a stick shift and really value total control of the transmission with the clutch pedal and stick shift. You are proud that you can heel-toe downshift anytime. You don't want to drive a car with paddles with no clutch as it feels like a video game to you.

2) Paddle shift transmission fan: you have no interest or limited skill in driving a stick shift with a clutch pedal (you can get by, but haven't really mastered heel-toe downshifting). You love the sporty automated transmissions which allow for gear shifts which you can control manually with paddles/buttons. You think this is the way of the future anyways......fast and perfect shifts every time.....why bother with a clutch pedal?

3) "I'm easy either way" type of fan: you are a skilled stick shift driver (as good as or even better than a die hard traditionalist), but you also appreciate the advantages of these new paddle shift gearboxes and are open/interested in driving one; you are not stuck on the notion that a stick shift car is the only way to go.

So tell us which category you fall into and your reasons/thoughts on the matter.

 

[martinbo]

I fall into category 3. I recently made the switch to an F30 auto - my first non-manual car ever after 22 years of driving - but I still regularly drive manuals which are either my own or my clients'.

I've done 5 sessions of track instruction this year so still have to be able to do the fancy footwork thing. Funny, I find myself braking the auto on the side of the pedal with the ball of my foot still! I then "heel-n-toe" to activate the auto-start earlier in anticipation for moving off. Old habits.

Nothing can replace the enjoyment, involvement and feeling of connectedness that you get from driving a good manual though. And driving it well is hugely rewarding. This of course is limited more to slowing down rapidly and balancing a vehicle into a corner. I don't care for full-bore, snap-shifting acceleration in a manual, I always have a measure of mechanical sympathy and prefer to keep things as smooth as possible. Smooth is slow when accelerating with a manual. To that end, the automated gearboxes make accelerating more of a pleasurable experience in my opinion.

Also, accelerating through and out of a corner is equally fun in either a manual or automated shifter as balancing the car on the limit becomes an interaction between throttle position and steering angle. And, this is where I believe the most fun is to be had in enthusiastic driving. I've already had my diesel auto on the skidpad!

 

[Sunny]

Obviously the answer depends on application. But on a driver's car, for me, it has to be a manual. I was open to DCT/PDK and short of owning one, I gave it a good try. While a challenging back road can make up for some of the lack of involvement of a, on more mundane roads, I found driving a PDK/DCT a very morose affair. For me there is no replacement for the involvement and connectedness of a good manual and that is leaving aside the joy of heel toeing. I know we probably won't have a choice very soon (on some segments you already don't), so while I still can, my choice would be a manual.

 

[martinbo]

Drove a PDK Cayman S (981) a while back. Didn't really miss the manual - I was just enjoying how the car feels so direct and pointy and willing to oversteer.

 

[Zafiro]

If I went for M5 or E63 then automatic, they are big and heavy to deserve a manual. But for smaller cars it must be a manual. I've driven all kind of automatics and I can understand its purpose. But for involvement a good stick is the best choice.
I've been driving manual for 20 years and my upcoming car is also a manual. It was between Fiesta ST and Clio RS but only one is available with a stick.
There are good and bad manual gearboxes. A good manual comes with meaty feel with precise and easy gear changes. If its a crappy manual gearbox then I don't want one.

I guess I'm into category 3.

 

[klier]

Cat. 3, but I spend most of the time driving manual cars

 

[mini_cooper4]

Tho my situation puts me in the third option I'll always vote for the first!

 

[ACE]

Obviously the answer depends on application. But on a driver's car, for me, it has to be a manual. I was open to DCT/PDK and short of owning one, I gave it a good try. While a challenging back road can make up for some of the lack of involvement of a, on more mundane roads, I found driving a PDK/DCT a very morose affair. For me there is no replacement for the involvement and connectedness of a good manual and that is leaving aside the joy of heel toeing. I know we probably won't have a choice very soon (on some segments you already don't), so while I still can, my choice would be a manual.

I thought you were category 4 (electric so no gears required)! What happened to the future is all efficient and electric with no gears required and all that... now you've gone all petrolhead again.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Good discussion so far guys. I'm definitely category #3. I agree with many people that nothing really compares to the experience of driving a true stick shift manual transmission with a clutch pedal. The coordination and interaction between throttle input, clutch engagement/disengagement and rowing through the gears is a unique experience, and even more satisfying when nailing that perfect rev match when downshifting (with or without concurrent braking). This type of feeling simply can't be replicated with a paddle shift transmission. I learned to drive on a torque converter automatic transmission car at age 17, but then decided later on to learn how to drive a stick shift in my mid 20's. As a car enthusiast, I WANTED to learn and master shifting by myself with a clutch pedal.

For the last 5 years, I've taken my 6MT 135i to the track many times, and in my mind, I completely understand and have mastered to a certain degree the hardest part of driving a stick shift: heel-n-toe downshifting when braking hard prior to corner entry. And no offense to anyone, but you CAN'T replicate this type of experience driving legally on the streeets. Am I the best stick shift driver?......absolutely not, but I think I've learned/practised enough to appreciate the skill required.

However, I'm not tied to a stick shift from a philosophical or enjoyment point of view. I've also tracked my torque converter C55 AMG many times, and I also get a lot of enjoyment from that car......it is easier to drive fast in because I just leave it in Sport mode and let the transmission do it's thing (the manual mode shifts too slow after pressing the buttons). And in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic, there is just no contest, a stick shift SUCKS no matter how you view it.

I'm open to these new superfast automated paddle shift transmissions and actually look forward to the experience of owning one. I'm of the opinion that such transmissions are the best of both worlds........fast and responsive to shifting inputs with complete control over gear selection without the need to worry about a clutch pedal, which is perfect for those hoping to maximize their pace around a track as one can concentrate more on the driving line, steering input, and braking points. In my opinion, it is a SAFER option for the average track day driver who is not a pro race car driver. And whenever you want or need to, you can simply drive it in automatic mode without any problems.

In fact, I would go out on a limb and say the following: the faster a car is capable of going, the more a paddle shift gearbox makes sense. For the average non-pro driver, not worrying about the clutch and rev matching allows the more access to the high speeds that fast sports cars these days can offer. As I mentioned earlier, it is probably safer as well.

For a lower powered car, a stick shift makes a lot of sense, everything doesn't happen as fast and you have more time to do what you need to do to shift properly.

 

[LaArtist]

this topic always makes me laugh.

Here in sweden you must drive stick otherwise you get a retarded license saying you can only drive AT.
Which more or less no one has, so its stick or nothing if you want to drive car here.
Ive driven stick all my life. I have great skills in using it, its not a skill to me. Its just a part of driving.

Now its a bitch to drive a stick in traffic, so for my daily car put me in group 3..i want the easiest way possible.
And that's just to stick it in auto and get going.

Now if i owned a sports car i would perhaps think about a MT, but then again the new dual clutch paddle boxes are so good that you can not even dream of being near in shift times.
So even then i think i would go for the PDK,s and SMGs and what nots...

So yeah MT for me?.. in very veeeery rare cases.

So when porsche decided not to give a MT option for the GT3 my reaction was this:

 

[ACE]

this topic always makes me laugh.

Me too.
In North America being able to drive "stick" = driving enthusiast
(almost) everywhere else being able drive a manual = driving license

 

[Centurion]

Manual is terrible in the wrong car.

How do I know? I spent 4 days with a Nissan Qashqai in the Scottish Highlands this spring. With five adults in the car I had to rev it like a Honda S2000 just to get any meaningful acceleration. 4th gear had no flexibility what so ever, 5th gear was useless and decent torque was only delivered around 4,000rpm. What engine was it? A four cylinder 1.6l petrol.


As much as I love manual transmissions, they don't make sense for every type of car.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Me too.
In North America being able to drive "stick" = driving enthusiast
(almost) everywhere else being able drive a manual = driving license

I completely agree with you and LaArtist. I think that is why there are these "die hard purists" (mostly from America) who make such a big fuss about driving with a clutch and stick. They view themselves as "superior", "a true driver/enthusiast", just because they can drive a stick, as most of their compatriots are only capable of driving an automatic transmission......in essence it is a source of pride. And when a stick shift isn't offerred any more on certain cars, they cry foul......sometimes it works for them.....look at the E60 M5....BMW made a crappy stick shift version just to satisfy the American market.

If one views driving stick as not a big deal, then moving to a paddle shift gear box is much easier on the soul. In fact, in the original Excellence article I got the poll from, category 3 was originally named "The Phlegmatic Thrill Seeker".

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Manual is terrible in the wrong car.

How do I know? I spent 4 days with a Nissan Qashqai in the Scottish Highlands this spring. With five adults in the car I had to rev it like a Honda S2000 just to get any meaningful acceleration. 4th gear had no flexibility what so ever, 5th gear was useless and decent torque was only delivered around 4,000rpm. What engine was it? A four cylinder 1.6l petrol.


As much as I love manual transmissions, they don't make sense for every type of car.

Actually, I would think that a manual transmission is better for an underpowered car......you actually can easily rev the engine higher to get the power you need. A torque converter automatic transmission in the car you just descibed would be woefully slow and unresponsive.

 

[Zonda]

For a daily driver I definitely want a stick and also manual handbrake. Very handy for when the police pop up out nowhere. Just a gentle pull on the handbrake, no brake lights and voila, I'm not speeding!

For fun, usually stick but if it suits the car I can live with anything.

 

[Sunny]

I thought you were category 4 (electric so no gears required)! What happened to the future is all efficient and electric with no gears required and all that... now you've gone all petrolhead again.

Yes, on a urban commuter car, I see the merits of simplicity and efficiency of an electric drive line. Do I think the an electric driveline is going to contribute to the fun of driving? Hell no.

I completely agree with you and LaArtist. I think that is why there are these "die hard purists" (mostly from America) who make such a big fuss about driving with a clutch and stick. They view themselves as "superior", "a true driver/enthusiast", just because they can drive a stick, as most of their compatriots are only capable of driving an automatic transmission......in essence it is a source of pride. And when a stick shift isn't offerred any more on certain cars, they cry foul......sometimes it works for them.....look at the E60 M5....BMW made a crappy stick shift version just to satisfy the American market.

If one views driving stick as not a big deal, then moving to a paddle shift gear box is much easier on the soul. In fact, in the original Excellence article I got the poll from, category 3 was originally named "The Phlegmatic Thrill Seeker".

Yes, there is an halo effect in US to be able to drive a stick. Most of my friends do not know how to. But take away all that and I would still prefer a proper manual in a proper driver's car just as intensely just because I find it more involving to drive.

In fact, I would go out on a limb and say the following: the faster a car is capable of going, the more a paddle shift gearbox makes sense. For the average non-pro driver, not worrying about the clutch and rev matching allows the more access to the high speeds that fast sports cars these days can offer. As I mentioned earlier, it is probably safer as well.

For a lower powered car, a stick shift makes a lot of sense, everything doesn't happen as fast and you have more time to do what you need to do to shift properly.

I agree. If I had to have DCT in a sports car, my choice would be to pair it with powerful high revving NA engine where it could make it easier to extract the last bit from the engine.

Though the combination of turbo engine and DCT makes a lot of sense on paper, I disliked the driving experience - the lag as well as the lack of emotion inherent in both seems to compound.

 

[ACE]

I completely agree with you and LaArtist. I think that is why there are these "die hard purists" (mostly from America) who make such a big fuss about driving with a clutch and stick. They view themselves as "superior", "a true driver/enthusiast", just because they can drive a stick, as most of their compatriots are only capable of driving an automatic transmission......in essence it is a source of pride. And when a stick shift isn't offerred any more on certain cars, they cry foul......sometimes it works for them.....look at the E60 M5....BMW made a crappy stick shift version just to satisfy the American market.

If one views driving stick as not a big deal, then moving to a paddle shift gear box is much easier on the soul. In fact, in the original Excellence article I got the poll from, category 3 was originally named "The Phlegmatic Thrill Seeker".

Agreed. BMW also made a manual version of the F10 M5 just for the American market. Having a manual transmission seems to be status symbol there.

On a naturally aspirated, lightweight sports car that doesn't have loads of heavy luxuries and electronic aids, manual makes sense. For other sporty cars my preference would be for DCT, and for luxurious heavy cars slushbox auto.

 

[Giannis]

I'm a die-hard "stick-shift" enthusiast.

Not that I have extensive experience of clutch pedal-less applications, but so far, I am very unimpressed, with the cars leaving me feeling incomplete, as if I was supposed to do more, but have to do less. That's not always a nice thing - it makes you feel empty.

I have no issues with a clutch pedal in downtown traffic. I've survived so far and I've never caught myself complaining.

Ι find that a clutch pedal can transform even the most boring car into an interesting experience. Personally, I feel involved, I feel that I have to work so that I can get out of the car what it can offer me. And on my journey towards understanding driving dynamics, I learned how to properly use the clutch pedal, both to my fun and to efficiency. I may not always be as smooth as a slush-box, but I certainly enjoy it.

I am not willing to give up the clutch pedal, at this in this point in my life.

No matter how good an automatic gearbox can be, I don't want my life to become easier. I want my life to become more fun, more involving, more "live". If anything, I still drive around with an old french hatch, that oversteers the moment you let off the gas pedal, has manual steering and cable-operated (as opposed to drive-by-wire) throttle butterfly. If only it had a carburetor instead of Bosch'es monomotronic fuel injection system.

 

[mini_cooper4]

@Giannis we share the same feelings, mate

A few days ago I took my Polo out for a ride and it was rainy.
We all know that rainy weather doesn't go well with brand new asphalt so I got some serious under-steer in a corner and thanks to my car being a manual I managed to control the traction by simply using the clutch and get the car going in the right direction again. It's ultra fun to drive a shifter when you know what you're doing. Every time I drive an AT it feels like I'm depending on a computer and some fancy electronics to "get me out" of "joyful situations"... most of the time they are unable to do what I'll be able to do in some analogue cars. Shifting gears ultra-fast is easy but that's not what shifters are all about.
If you are a good driver nothing can replace the clutch pedal and you never get tired of it.

 

[martinbo]

@Giannis we share the same feelings, mate

A few days ago I took my Polo out for a ride and it was rainy.
We all know that rainy weather doesn't go well with brand new asphalt so I got some serious under-steer in a corner and thanks to my car being a manual I managed to control the traction by simply using the clutch and get the car going in the right direction again.

Eh?

You were understeering in the wet and you managed to "control the traction" using the clutch to achieve what exactly? You can do that but it will have no further effect than a throttle lift. It's not the correct technique - to mitigate understeer best you need to apply throttle and steering changes - not use the clutch. Why? Depressing the clutch will negate the effect of engine braking on the front wheels as you'll simply be coasting at the same speed. Engine braking allows for load transfer on to the front axle and it's fundamental to the operation of "lift-off oversteer". It's a common term so closely associated with the joys of driving a good front-driver. I use it all the time when I'm demo'ing little French hatchbacks to prospective customers around a track. Furthermore, an additional dose of effectiveness is achieved by winding off a few degrees of steering lock as steering angle is the other prime contributor to understeer.

You may have your technique but I don't see the necessity for it.