Is BMW becoming too soft?
- Thread starter Bartek S.
- Start date
Beemer B773ER
Tire Trailblazer
Oh dear...
It's a sub-brand. The traditional BMW models will not be fully built by mixing carbon fibre with recycled Coca-Cola bottles.
It's a sub-brand. The traditional BMW models will not be fully built by mixing carbon fibre with recycled Coca-Cola bottles.
Mr. Mercedes
Premium
BMW is walking a fine line. As Audi is gung hoe about out sporting BMW, BMW seems to be softening their approach to appeal to a wider audience, and to achieve the 'real driving pleasure' there name was once synonymous with, expensive chassis options need to be specified. BMW were once the darlings of the motoring media because of the way they drove, but after years of sub par ride quality, and now the need to specify expensive chassis options, they're quickly losing favour with a lot of these same journalists.
That said, they've built an incredibly strong name for themselves and the public will swallow anything BMW throws out quicker than they can build them, much like Mercedes managed to do so despite producing some cars of horrendous quality for years. This loss of focus by Mercedes cost them billions down the line. Wether the same will happen to BMW remains to be seen.
That said, they've built an incredibly strong name for themselves and the public will swallow anything BMW throws out quicker than they can build them, much like Mercedes managed to do so despite producing some cars of horrendous quality for years. This loss of focus by Mercedes cost them billions down the line. Wether the same will happen to BMW remains to be seen.
Merc1
Premium
I would say that BMW is definitely getting softer. Their cars are gaining weight, a good deal of it with each new generation. The dynamics aren't as sharp as the previous car either. Their interiors are getting more luxurious and more eye appealing. So yes they're getting softer, but they're also more successful also because now BMWs appeal to more people IMO. Still though a 5-Series shouldn't gain that much weight from one model to the next IMO. BMW is moving towards the center of the market where the money/bigger sales are IMO.
Others changes like loss of M's soul is due to outside factors mainly, but it still a loss. AWD, turbos, automatics only etc. Definitely going mainstream and softer there.
That said BMW is back as far as I'm concerned. Gone are the ugly, eye-sore, weirdo designs and the ridiculous interior complication. Love the new crop of BMWs. Considering an M3 soon.
The key is that long as BMW is still sportier than Mercedes or Audi they can be softer and more appealing to the masses, long as they hold that performance advantage they're good. When they get to the point where a regular Mercedes or Audi is sportier then they have a problem.
M
Others changes like loss of M's soul is due to outside factors mainly, but it still a loss. AWD, turbos, automatics only etc. Definitely going mainstream and softer there.
That said BMW is back as far as I'm concerned. Gone are the ugly, eye-sore, weirdo designs and the ridiculous interior complication. Love the new crop of BMWs. Considering an M3 soon.
The key is that long as BMW is still sportier than Mercedes or Audi they can be softer and more appealing to the masses, long as they hold that performance advantage they're good. When they get to the point where a regular Mercedes or Audi is sportier then they have a problem.
M
hoffmeister_fan
Kraftwagen König
Yes.
Michael
Torque Titan
I really wanted to wait a while to see where this thread went, but I cannot help myself. To be honest, I have been waiting for an opportunity like this for a while now. I saw it on my iphone and had to get up from bed to get on my laptop to write out how I feel.
BMW, has become too soft. They've lost that touch. I am sorry. But then again, so have other car brands. Let us face the fact that everyone today is making an SUV, a Saloon, a sports car, etc. Everyone is trying to get a piece of every pie out there. I remember when Porsche was Porsche. They would simply make sports cars. That is it. No 4 door saloons nor suvs. That is just one example, but it really goes to the point I am making. Part of the reason why BMW has lost their touch is because they are trying too many different things. I think the best strategy out there, for anyone, is to go back to the drawing board and be simple.
For example, some of their designs--with all due respect to Mr. Bangle--have gone adrift. Remember the e46? That was a remarkable car. So was the 5 series of that era and so was the 7er. There was a huge design shift, and I am not sure BMW recovered from it. They also have overcomplicated things with idrive, though since the introduction of that system things have gotten way better when it comes to it being simple. The ultimate driving machine should be that. Simple. I really wish that BMW would scrap the excess fat, like other car brands, and stick to what they know what is best.
BMW, has become too soft. They've lost that touch. I am sorry. But then again, so have other car brands. Let us face the fact that everyone today is making an SUV, a Saloon, a sports car, etc. Everyone is trying to get a piece of every pie out there. I remember when Porsche was Porsche. They would simply make sports cars. That is it. No 4 door saloons nor suvs. That is just one example, but it really goes to the point I am making. Part of the reason why BMW has lost their touch is because they are trying too many different things. I think the best strategy out there, for anyone, is to go back to the drawing board and be simple.
For example, some of their designs--with all due respect to Mr. Bangle--have gone adrift. Remember the e46? That was a remarkable car. So was the 5 series of that era and so was the 7er. There was a huge design shift, and I am not sure BMW recovered from it. They also have overcomplicated things with idrive, though since the introduction of that system things have gotten way better when it comes to it being simple. The ultimate driving machine should be that. Simple. I really wish that BMW would scrap the excess fat, like other car brands, and stick to what they know what is best.
Sunny
Premium
Absolutely. Even sadder part is before it was an engineering oriented company and now it is a design/marketing driven company. Before the special editions were really special, now they are paint jobs. Before it was lead by engineers like Gerhard Richter, now by marketing guys Kay Segler who likes to wear funky jackets and deliver cheesy lines on You Tube videos. But the real irony is, despite all this "dilution" their cars are still the sportiest of the bunch more often than not - at least for now.
ps - just to clarify, unlike the original article, I don't think "i" cars are to blame, if anything, imo they represent some sort of engineering milestone. It is the bevy of superficial made up niche cars like 5GT, X6 and future crap that Scott mentions like Compact Sport Grand Tourer and Family Activity Sports Tourer that make me want to throw up.
ps - just to clarify, unlike the original article, I don't think "i" cars are to blame, if anything, imo they represent some sort of engineering milestone. It is the bevy of superficial made up niche cars like 5GT, X6 and future crap that Scott mentions like Compact Sport Grand Tourer and Family Activity Sports Tourer that make me want to throw up.
D
Deleted member 1071
I reckon that BMW will be just fine.
The necessity to reduce the weight of automobiles is something that all manufacturers are clearly aware of and the issue is being (or will be) addressed with dilligence. Otherwise, BMW has a stellar lineup of cars appealing to most existing target customer bases and has been quite savvy in occupying market niches as well as creating them.
They must however make every effort to avoid the quality issues that M-B experienced in the late 1990s'-early 2000s'. Their image was very badly mauled and still hasn't fully recovered to its' former peak. BMW and Audi capturing an increasingly larger part of the market pie presents testimony to that.
The necessity to reduce the weight of automobiles is something that all manufacturers are clearly aware of and the issue is being (or will be) addressed with dilligence. Otherwise, BMW has a stellar lineup of cars appealing to most existing target customer bases and has been quite savvy in occupying market niches as well as creating them.
They must however make every effort to avoid the quality issues that M-B experienced in the late 1990s'-early 2000s'. Their image was very badly mauled and still hasn't fully recovered to its' former peak. BMW and Audi capturing an increasingly larger part of the market pie presents testimony to that.
Ultimate Car Guy
Porsche Perfektionist
I think this question is very interesting because this question, along with the answers, are directed to 20-something year old enthusiasts, who if you really think about it, can't afford a BMW without getting into a heap of debt.
1. BMW products in essence, stands for the ultimate driving machines. They are suppose to be sporty, nippy, agile, highly responsive to the steering and the accelerator peddle. They should feel like a second skin - not too loose and not too tight.
2. However, their products are very expensive (where i live they are), and realistically only the affluent can afford them.
3. Also consider that BMW is an INDEPENDENT business (unlike most of its rivals), and it NEEDS to perform and remain competitive otherwise it simply cannot survive and will be swallowed by another company.
Now consider 1, 2 and 3 of the above collectively. If you have all of those abovementioned parramaters as part of your business, how would you structure your business?
How can you maintain your core values (which are more suited to a younger market), when only older people can afford your products and they demand a bit more comfort and luxury?
How can you maintain your core values in an extremely competitive market in an industry that is plagued by 50%+ overcapacity and that is threatening your very existence becasue of your relatively small size.
Based on my experience, and i am only a chartered accountant with a passion for cars, and if i were to shape BMW today, then what i would do would not be too dissimilar to the current BMW range right now.
I honestly think they are doing well. They've survived the crisis stronger than ever, and i've never seen their product range so strong.
I think a lot of journalists need to drop their ego and realise that they are just "journalists". And without being too condecending, "motoring journalists" along with "travel journalists" rank amongst the lowest positions in that profession.
BMW is a business, yes it needs to uphold its core values, but it needs to cater for an older demographic to STAY in business. Its a VERY DIFFICULT balancing act to get right, but when i look at their product range, they're not doing too bad.
1. BMW products in essence, stands for the ultimate driving machines. They are suppose to be sporty, nippy, agile, highly responsive to the steering and the accelerator peddle. They should feel like a second skin - not too loose and not too tight.
2. However, their products are very expensive (where i live they are), and realistically only the affluent can afford them.
3. Also consider that BMW is an INDEPENDENT business (unlike most of its rivals), and it NEEDS to perform and remain competitive otherwise it simply cannot survive and will be swallowed by another company.
Now consider 1, 2 and 3 of the above collectively. If you have all of those abovementioned parramaters as part of your business, how would you structure your business?
How can you maintain your core values (which are more suited to a younger market), when only older people can afford your products and they demand a bit more comfort and luxury?
How can you maintain your core values in an extremely competitive market in an industry that is plagued by 50%+ overcapacity and that is threatening your very existence becasue of your relatively small size.
Based on my experience, and i am only a chartered accountant with a passion for cars, and if i were to shape BMW today, then what i would do would not be too dissimilar to the current BMW range right now.
I honestly think they are doing well. They've survived the crisis stronger than ever, and i've never seen their product range so strong.
I think a lot of journalists need to drop their ego and realise that they are just "journalists". And without being too condecending, "motoring journalists" along with "travel journalists" rank amongst the lowest positions in that profession.
BMW is a business, yes it needs to uphold its core values, but it needs to cater for an older demographic to STAY in business. Its a VERY DIFFICULT balancing act to get right, but when i look at their product range, they're not doing too bad.
hoffmeister_fan
Kraftwagen König
OK, I skimmed through the article, and I still think that BMW has gotten softer. However, it's not necessarily the end all, be all for BMW. Let's consider the following points.
1) the competition has caught up in terms of sportiness. Mercedes-Benz was the stiffer luxury foil to BMW's sporty eminence. But the operative word is was. MB's AMG division has made serious inroads with not only providing brute force, but brute force that can be handled, i.e. the current E63. Audi as of late has been kicking ass and taking names. Their recent products are reminiscient of BMW's offerings of the late 80's and 90's: not overly fussy, understated, yet provides a great balance between luxurious ride and sport dynamism Refer to Autoblog's recent test drive of the A8, the recently introduced A6, and RS' offerings of the TTS, R8's, and the RS5.
2) I'm going to defer to UCG's post because it really is a great argument of why what they are doing is wholly necessary
We always do look at the past with rose-colored glasses. Priorities of the future will be much different from the past. Along the way, the way business is done will have to change in order to survive, let alone, flourish.
3) BMW use to let the product do the talking. Their PR was minimalistic with an emphasis on engineering. Now the balance is shifted to the other end where it's all marketing hot air. Hell, there's even a name designated for RWD with the dreaded "S-drive." The cars themselves use to emote feelings of desire whereas now we have some guy talking about joy. I'm a fan of the more implicit approach. I noticed the author of the article in question touched on the much revered BMW Films. What was great about those short films was there was some engaging plot but the cars were rarely explicitly referred. The viewer saw how wonderful they are without Clive Owen having to say "This is a bloody wonderful drive! Oh, the joy."
4) Again, got to defer to another board member, Sunny, since he really sums up the current state of the M-division
I'll start of that I disagree with some of the points in the latter half that Sunny has made. I'm no fan of the 5GT, X6, etc. They are over-weight and IMO somewhat pointless styling exercise. But I understand a market exists and that converting a 5er platform to a 5GT or an X5 to an X6 provides rather large margins of profit. But this does run the risk of diluting BMW's brand equity it has built in the form of sporty cars. I guess it comes down to if BMW is willing to risk that for probable market gain. I have no qualms with the "i" line. This is where BMW can demonstrate its engineering prowess, granted it'll be doused with tons of marketing jargon, but their alternate energy route is intriguing. I'm no fan of the future FWD offerings but it's begrudgingly understandable.
What has become of the M-division makes me rather sad. Granted what I'm about to say has been said by me as well as others on the board many times in the past.....I understand dilution of the mainstream line is inevitable in order to gain as much market share as one can gain. But why does the M-division have to be compromised? This is the division that many in the mainstream non-M cars aspire to one day own. Efficiency is undoubtedly important but how much more efficient can you get before you start to lose that special quality that made the M-sport division stand out?
For all those reasons in my ramblings (that were otherwise augmented by clearer thoughts of others) are why BMW AG is getting softer. Is it for the best? Time will tell if BMW will retain its revered "BMWness" or if it becomes just another car company.
1) the competition has caught up in terms of sportiness. Mercedes-Benz was the stiffer luxury foil to BMW's sporty eminence. But the operative word is was. MB's AMG division has made serious inroads with not only providing brute force, but brute force that can be handled, i.e. the current E63. Audi as of late has been kicking ass and taking names. Their recent products are reminiscient of BMW's offerings of the late 80's and 90's: not overly fussy, understated, yet provides a great balance between luxurious ride and sport dynamism Refer to Autoblog's recent test drive of the A8, the recently introduced A6, and RS' offerings of the TTS, R8's, and the RS5.
2) I'm going to defer to UCG's post because it really is a great argument of why what they are doing is wholly necessary
We always do look at the past with rose-colored glasses. Priorities of the future will be much different from the past. Along the way, the way business is done will have to change in order to survive, let alone, flourish.
3) BMW use to let the product do the talking. Their PR was minimalistic with an emphasis on engineering. Now the balance is shifted to the other end where it's all marketing hot air. Hell, there's even a name designated for RWD with the dreaded "S-drive." The cars themselves use to emote feelings of desire whereas now we have some guy talking about joy. I'm a fan of the more implicit approach. I noticed the author of the article in question touched on the much revered BMW Films. What was great about those short films was there was some engaging plot but the cars were rarely explicitly referred. The viewer saw how wonderful they are without Clive Owen having to say "This is a bloody wonderful drive! Oh, the joy."
4) Again, got to defer to another board member, Sunny, since he really sums up the current state of the M-division
I'll start of that I disagree with some of the points in the latter half that Sunny has made. I'm no fan of the 5GT, X6, etc. They are over-weight and IMO somewhat pointless styling exercise. But I understand a market exists and that converting a 5er platform to a 5GT or an X5 to an X6 provides rather large margins of profit. But this does run the risk of diluting BMW's brand equity it has built in the form of sporty cars. I guess it comes down to if BMW is willing to risk that for probable market gain. I have no qualms with the "i" line. This is where BMW can demonstrate its engineering prowess, granted it'll be doused with tons of marketing jargon, but their alternate energy route is intriguing. I'm no fan of the future FWD offerings but it's begrudgingly understandable.
What has become of the M-division makes me rather sad. Granted what I'm about to say has been said by me as well as others on the board many times in the past.....I understand dilution of the mainstream line is inevitable in order to gain as much market share as one can gain. But why does the M-division have to be compromised? This is the division that many in the mainstream non-M cars aspire to one day own. Efficiency is undoubtedly important but how much more efficient can you get before you start to lose that special quality that made the M-sport division stand out?
For all those reasons in my ramblings (that were otherwise augmented by clearer thoughts of others) are why BMW AG is getting softer. Is it for the best? Time will tell if BMW will retain its revered "BMWness" or if it becomes just another car company.
Human
You. The Road. Nothing else.
Now that is well spoken indeed!
And all on this forum can gun me for I drive BMW X, but all has to keep in mind that I once owned a 1er and E46 3er coupe & sedan. I may not be the 'Tiff Needell' behind the steering wheel nor the engineer! But (without being a typical fanboy) THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with how the BMW of today drives, handles, corners. BMW as sharp drivers cars that puts a smile on their proud owners faces!
BMW are successful and healthy, their 'menu' has gotten a lot lager with much more products to satisfy all tastes.
The 1M, M3 upcoming M5, M6 etc. are pure sport cars, the GT is a tourer thats successful (so shut up!) and the story goes on.
And mark my words March 10, 2011: "BMW will at the end of this year again be THE WORLDS BEST SELLING LUXURY BRAND"
EnI
Piston Pioneer
The real question that you should answer to yourselves is: Is BMW changing, or are the customers (and their habits, preferences etc)?
The once core BMW customers - the flower-prower generation, the yuppies, petrol motorsport addicts etc. are getting older. And they prefer a bit more comfy ride. But they still love the BMW. Should they got to eg. Porsche instead? No. BMW decided to offer them BMW for their needs. Done.
Sure there are still some core BMW purists out there. Even some youngsters do prefer harsh sporty ride, but today they are more into tech then motoring. Hardcore petrol motoring is so 80s.
Not only BMW is getting "softer". So is Porsche, Ferrari etc. Today's cars compared to the old ones all feel rather cyborgish, much less raw.
Also a fact that has to be taken into configuration: by all measures BMW AG is a small automotive company. And it is independent, not being a part of a larger automotive group. Is that good or bad? Depends. Bad for purists since the company can't afford any more to only cater to their needs. It has to go broader to survive. If not independent BMW would probably stay niche much more performance oriented brand. Or not. No company would like to have an unprofitable BMW AG in its portfolio - so I guess even under some big company's umbrella BMW would still have to expand its product line, and share parts.
And more: BMW never has been a niche brand. It was more about sports cars for "masses" - compared to eg. Porsche. And BMW took that title from Alfa Romeo! Yes, once upon a time Alfa Romeo was THE sportiest brand for sedans & coupes "for masses". For others there were Lambos, Porsches, Ferraries, Astons ... and they still are.
So, being in a such position BMW has much more rivals than eg. Ferrari. So, it has to evolve to survive.
It's a fact more and more customers WANT more comfy BMWs. It's a constant battle between "should" and "want". Customers tell BMW they should built more comfortable cars, yet BMW want the brand to stay sporty. so, there is always less comfort delivered than asked by customers! But if rigid & saying NO, BMW would lose quite a lot of their (aging) customers. So the brand has to evolve with it's customers. The newcomers are not as much sporty & performance oriented. Gosh, 3/4 of 1er buyers think the car has a FWD!!!!
Mr. Kiley perspective is rather limited, and very, very US-centered. And sure a member of the old guard.
If there was something wrong with the brand the sales would be sinking.
It's weird everybody is saying BMW is losing it, while sales are going up & up. It doesn't make sense, does it?
Bad products of crappy brand would not sell. BMW vehicles do sell. A lot.
But sure to some BMW is losing its edge. Especially to the aficionados who were able to drive older purer BMWs. But they are a minority today. They simply do not matter as much as they did in 80s or early 90s.
I'm sure BMW would produce sharp, super sporty cars in millions if they could. But they can't. There are simply not enough buyers for such cars @ such a price. But for the contemporary BMW there are a lot of customers. So, BMW HAVE TO adapt.
So, has BMW gone softer? Yes. But there is a good reason for that. Described above.
Customers desire well balanced cars. The masters of all trade. Therefore MB & Lexus are getting sportier, while eg. BMW & Alfa Romeo 6 Porsche are getting more comfortable. It's a force no car company can't fight. The law of consumer preferences. Basic marketing.
The once core BMW customers - the flower-prower generation, the yuppies, petrol motorsport addicts etc. are getting older. And they prefer a bit more comfy ride. But they still love the BMW. Should they got to eg. Porsche instead? No. BMW decided to offer them BMW for their needs. Done.
Sure there are still some core BMW purists out there. Even some youngsters do prefer harsh sporty ride, but today they are more into tech then motoring. Hardcore petrol motoring is so 80s.
Not only BMW is getting "softer". So is Porsche, Ferrari etc. Today's cars compared to the old ones all feel rather cyborgish, much less raw.
Also a fact that has to be taken into configuration: by all measures BMW AG is a small automotive company. And it is independent, not being a part of a larger automotive group. Is that good or bad? Depends. Bad for purists since the company can't afford any more to only cater to their needs. It has to go broader to survive. If not independent BMW would probably stay niche much more performance oriented brand. Or not. No company would like to have an unprofitable BMW AG in its portfolio - so I guess even under some big company's umbrella BMW would still have to expand its product line, and share parts.
And more: BMW never has been a niche brand. It was more about sports cars for "masses" - compared to eg. Porsche. And BMW took that title from Alfa Romeo! Yes, once upon a time Alfa Romeo was THE sportiest brand for sedans & coupes "for masses". For others there were Lambos, Porsches, Ferraries, Astons ... and they still are.
So, being in a such position BMW has much more rivals than eg. Ferrari. So, it has to evolve to survive.
It's a fact more and more customers WANT more comfy BMWs. It's a constant battle between "should" and "want". Customers tell BMW they should built more comfortable cars, yet BMW want the brand to stay sporty. so, there is always less comfort delivered than asked by customers! But if rigid & saying NO, BMW would lose quite a lot of their (aging) customers. So the brand has to evolve with it's customers. The newcomers are not as much sporty & performance oriented. Gosh, 3/4 of 1er buyers think the car has a FWD!!!!
Mr. Kiley perspective is rather limited, and very, very US-centered. And sure a member of the old guard.
If there was something wrong with the brand the sales would be sinking.
It's weird everybody is saying BMW is losing it, while sales are going up & up. It doesn't make sense, does it?
Bad products of crappy brand would not sell. BMW vehicles do sell. A lot.
But sure to some BMW is losing its edge. Especially to the aficionados who were able to drive older purer BMWs. But they are a minority today. They simply do not matter as much as they did in 80s or early 90s.
I'm sure BMW would produce sharp, super sporty cars in millions if they could. But they can't. There are simply not enough buyers for such cars @ such a price. But for the contemporary BMW there are a lot of customers. So, BMW HAVE TO adapt.
So, has BMW gone softer? Yes. But there is a good reason for that. Described above.
Customers desire well balanced cars. The masters of all trade. Therefore MB & Lexus are getting sportier, while eg. BMW & Alfa Romeo 6 Porsche are getting more comfortable. It's a force no car company can't fight. The law of consumer preferences. Basic marketing.
martinbo
Staff member
Yes, BMW is becoming softer. That's because their customers are becoming softer.
Then again this phenomenon is not unique to BMW - it's ubiquitously applicable across the entire industry. Just take stock of these iconic monikers that, in many cases, perpetuate a lineage that extends back to the '80s: M3, GTI, RS, M5, STI, EVO, 911 etc. and you'll see the trend is exactly the same.
All of the cars bearing such badging have become softer which equals more refined, easier to manoeuver, better insulated, more comfortable, more assistive and altogether less demanding of driver skill.
This is just the way of the world - if BMW still made cars as hardcore as the E30 M3 or CSL then only a handful would buy them. Why? Because nobody but the absolute die-hards really wants to use an expensive yet hardcore machine as their daily transport on urban roads. It's why cars like the E92 M3 and C63 AMG are so successful; it's not because they're the ultimate in dynamic ability, rather it's that they're the ultimate in striking a perfect balance between outright performance and acceptable comfort, luxury and refinement on a daily basis.
Only the very few can afford the weekend, hardcore cars that deluded internet car forum addicts pretend to want. Sure, I want an M3 CSL - love that car - but for daily use? I'd be out of my effing mind. And that's coming from someone that's far more hardcore tolerant than even most people here.
Then again this phenomenon is not unique to BMW - it's ubiquitously applicable across the entire industry. Just take stock of these iconic monikers that, in many cases, perpetuate a lineage that extends back to the '80s: M3, GTI, RS, M5, STI, EVO, 911 etc. and you'll see the trend is exactly the same.
All of the cars bearing such badging have become softer which equals more refined, easier to manoeuver, better insulated, more comfortable, more assistive and altogether less demanding of driver skill.
This is just the way of the world - if BMW still made cars as hardcore as the E30 M3 or CSL then only a handful would buy them. Why? Because nobody but the absolute die-hards really wants to use an expensive yet hardcore machine as their daily transport on urban roads. It's why cars like the E92 M3 and C63 AMG are so successful; it's not because they're the ultimate in dynamic ability, rather it's that they're the ultimate in striking a perfect balance between outright performance and acceptable comfort, luxury and refinement on a daily basis.
Only the very few can afford the weekend, hardcore cars that deluded internet car forum addicts pretend to want. Sure, I want an M3 CSL - love that car - but for daily use? I'd be out of my effing mind. And that's coming from someone that's far more hardcore tolerant than even most people here.
Sunny
Premium
Just to clarify, my rant was not about any specific car like M3/M5 getting softer /more luxurious - that like Martin put it is inevitable and happening everywhere. But the company in general seems to have lost it's engineering focus, now it is all just about design/marketing. Before they put a bunch of engineers in a room and came up M coupe, now they put bunch of marketing guys in a room and came up with 5GT. Before BMW wanted to show case it's engineering powers - it supplied McLaren with S70/2. Now it comes up with gimmicky doodads like connected drive (not talking about the car, but the stupid changing light stuff).
EnI
Piston Pioneer
^
Do you aware how much more complex cars have become in last, say 30 years? Also due to safety regulations.
It's not all about cogs and screws anymore. Electronics is as much as important as mechanics, if not more.
Not to mention people want roomier car - and that usually makes cars bigger. And legislators & regulators want cars to be safeties - and that makes them heavier. Unless expensive and exotic lightweight materials are used.
Marketing? Do you think companies are playgrounds for engineers? They are not! They a working place, where engineers develop a product FOR A CUSTOMER. And that's the marketing all about - THE CUSTOMER. A company depends on customers, not vice versa. A company is there for the customers (to offer them products that satisfy their needs & desires). Demand makes supply.
Engineers are just hos of marketing guys. And marketing gus are Hos of the guys from financial department. And - still - at least usually designers are still engineers' Hos. Sure they work together as a team, but usually there is a hierarchy.
E65 is a great example. Financial recurses for R&D were limited (due Rover fiasco). Marketers got signal from customer they need bigger & more comfortable car. And marketers want the car to be a true BMW (light, agile, sporty). Engineers said that's only possible if lightweight materials are used. And they want the car to be a true ultimate driving machine. Marketers said "no, that's not what people really want today - especially not in Japan & China", but they agreed on lightweight construction. guys from finance said "no way! too expensive. find another solution." So in the end no ASF was used. So the frame was conventional - and high due to safety requirements (head airbags etc). And then the designers got that dorky fat frame to work on. And then there was a problem with wheel size (designers wanted bigger wheel but engineers said they had to be smaller for more comfy ride since marketers had said so) ... and with the aerodynamics due to higher roof - and therefore the rear had to be higher as well - since designers didn't wont to make it longer (that will help aerodynamics) because that would ruin typical BMW design proportions. And beside that some things went also wrong in the design engineering process - since the headlights as designer had imagined them would be just to expensive to made, and the finance guys said no --- and the car ended with stupid looking headlines.
It's a constant battle ... in the end it all ends @ financial resources. If they are rather unlimited, then theres absolutely no problem to make a perfect car. But usually they aren't. And sure engineers want to make a perfect MACHINE - but what customers have told marketers is that they need a perfect CAR. Usable for daily ride. Not just an uncomfortable sporty machine that can do a Nuerburgring lap in no time, and can drift insanely.
You know what is an automotive engineer's wet dream? A coach-building car company, making a supercar (unfortunately usually for collector, not necessarily the racing aficionados) - and the project being funded by a superwealthy individual.
Or working as an engineer in a racing team. Working for a regular car company ... it just make you a regular ho. As any other employee nowadays.
Do you aware how much more complex cars have become in last, say 30 years? Also due to safety regulations.
It's not all about cogs and screws anymore. Electronics is as much as important as mechanics, if not more.
Not to mention people want roomier car - and that usually makes cars bigger. And legislators & regulators want cars to be safeties - and that makes them heavier. Unless expensive and exotic lightweight materials are used.
Marketing? Do you think companies are playgrounds for engineers? They are not! They a working place, where engineers develop a product FOR A CUSTOMER. And that's the marketing all about - THE CUSTOMER. A company depends on customers, not vice versa. A company is there for the customers (to offer them products that satisfy their needs & desires). Demand makes supply.
Engineers are just hos of marketing guys. And marketing gus are Hos of the guys from financial department. And - still - at least usually designers are still engineers' Hos. Sure they work together as a team, but usually there is a hierarchy.
E65 is a great example. Financial recurses for R&D were limited (due Rover fiasco). Marketers got signal from customer they need bigger & more comfortable car. And marketers want the car to be a true BMW (light, agile, sporty). Engineers said that's only possible if lightweight materials are used. And they want the car to be a true ultimate driving machine. Marketers said "no, that's not what people really want today - especially not in Japan & China", but they agreed on lightweight construction. guys from finance said "no way! too expensive. find another solution." So in the end no ASF was used. So the frame was conventional - and high due to safety requirements (head airbags etc). And then the designers got that dorky fat frame to work on. And then there was a problem with wheel size (designers wanted bigger wheel but engineers said they had to be smaller for more comfy ride since marketers had said so) ... and with the aerodynamics due to higher roof - and therefore the rear had to be higher as well - since designers didn't wont to make it longer (that will help aerodynamics) because that would ruin typical BMW design proportions. And beside that some things went also wrong in the design engineering process - since the headlights as designer had imagined them would be just to expensive to made, and the finance guys said no --- and the car ended with stupid looking headlines.
It's a constant battle ... in the end it all ends @ financial resources. If they are rather unlimited, then theres absolutely no problem to make a perfect car. But usually they aren't. And sure engineers want to make a perfect MACHINE - but what customers have told marketers is that they need a perfect CAR. Usable for daily ride. Not just an uncomfortable sporty machine that can do a Nuerburgring lap in no time, and can drift insanely.
You know what is an automotive engineer's wet dream? A coach-building car company, making a supercar (unfortunately usually for collector, not necessarily the racing aficionados) - and the project being funded by a superwealthy individual.
Or working as an engineer in a racing team. Working for a regular car company ... it just make you a regular ho. As any other employee nowadays.
hoffmeister_fan
Kraftwagen König
EnI, was this process always the case within the confines of BMW or was it really due to having their hands' tied from the Rover fallout?
I understand that finances, or lack thereof, will always constrain ideals. And there's always going to be input and disagreements between the various factions, but my assessment of BMW relative to other car companies is that the engineers have a significant say with what's put in the car. And especially within the M-sport division, there's even more emphasis from the engineers.
Also while cars have become more and more complex due to more features requiring more electronic componentry, engineering precision will always be required and needed.
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BMW
Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, abbreviated as BMW is a German multinational
manufacturer of luxury vehicles and motorcycles headquartered in Munich, Bavaria, Germany.
The company was founded in 1916 as a manufacturer of aircraft engines, which it produced
from 1917 to 1918 and again from 1933 to 1945.
Official website: BMW (Global), BMW (USA)
Official website: BMW (Global), BMW (USA)
