German Car Forum

Well I know I'm being picky, but I find the recent Mercedes designs not to be as well resolved as BMW's and Audi's. There are cut lines that just appear from nowhere that do not flow with the design -- the impression is a slightly disjointed and "slashed" design -- one could argue that BMW do the same ..but BMW resolve their designs much more thoroughly ...and with more finesse.

I hate to say this, but Mercedes is not designed to the same standard as Audi. When I say that, I am not necessarily referring to the appearance of the vehicle but more so the thoroughness of the design ..a thorough understanding of an aesthetic. BMW and Audi are far more fully resolved designs ...Mercedes is a little bit untidy -- the CL is an attractive car -- but, like the S, it should have been a magnificent car ....there are many things about its design that do not sit comfortably with me.

I totally disagree with this. Audis aren't flowingly designed type cars they're usually of the bar-o-soap design with a swoopy roofline, but it works in that conversatively handsome type way that of course I like, but to say MB's are designed as well I can't go with that because to my eye (especially when viewed from the side profile) Audis are much simplier in design, almost plain even, but still elegant looking. That takes skill for sure, but MB's new designs are swoopier and they've still managed to retain that link to the past.

M

I feared this would happen

Merc1, I think you have misinterpreted me here. I never said that Audi were better looking than Mercedes ...just that they have a more thorough grasp on their aesthetic. The current Audi aesthetic seems more thoroughly convincing ...Mercedes current designs seem to be slightly incongruous. I have said this several times before and I still stand by my assessment. Also, I think you are underestimating the standard of design at Audi. Contrary to the clean and uncluttered appearance, Audi is very carefully and skillfully designed. Out of the three brands, I think Audi probably have the biggest following among designers right now -- BMW is more dramatic and is also much admired.

Sad to say Marcus, but Mercedes is by far the most "middle-of-the-road" design wise. Mercedes is quite toned-down and (dare I say it) compromised.

Yes, I agree that MB is middle of the road, and the S klasse and GL are definately compromised design wise, but this one is a way nicer/better/proper designed car compared to the 2 goofy forementioned.

[As for biggest following among designers right now, I guess BMW wins hands down, while Audi among more carefull uper managent/marketing personal]

Imhotep Evil -- sure most designers would probably choose a BMW over an Audi .....as I would definitely choose a CL over any BMW or Audi ....but in terms of design discussion, and the general style of our time, I think Audi is the most interesting of the three marques. I understand that to many, the Audi style is boring and plain -- but from a purely academic point of view, Audi will probably emerge as the real design leader of the three. In many ways, Audi has the most honest and pure mien of state-of-the-art design in our time -- it communicates, with great clarity, all of the values and principles Audi represents -- whereas BMW is more about fantasy and metaphysics -- BMW is much more artistic and highly expressive.

well i dont understand this design crap..
to me a good design is a design that appeals to my eyes..
and thats it.. no cuts, lines, flame surfacing matter..
maybe im a fool when it comes to car design.. but like i said..
it can be ohh so brilliant in the eye of design enthusiasts.. but if it doesent appeal to me..it can more or less go down the drain..
im sorry

Well sure Artist ...you probably represent the majority there ...but do not underestimate the importance of design -- it has become a major aspect of these companies identities ...and Mercedes is lagging behind Audi and BMW at present.

Mercedes is definitely working hard on their design image, but quite honestly, the new CL is going to look old quite quickly -- I am almost certain of that -- the 6er looks far fresher and it is three years younger.

Agreed here.


1. To be interesting, IMO it should go beyond the curent state of affairs, and only the first TT and now R8 do that.

2. Thus if Audi doesn't change they won't become a design leader, IMO.

3. What does Audi stand for ?!

> They don't even know that. Audi has the worst image/has no image of the german premium marques because of that.
> As for communication, Audi themselves stated that they were following BMW on the path to humanity, and that so their cars must comunicate to people.
> However this only makes them a follower, not a leader (unless they pick something else).

And so, how can Audi comunicate with great precision their values and principels ?!

4. In its critics of metaphysics one of the arguments Nietzsche used, was that metaphysics is agains/anti-human.

> In keeping that argument, and BMW's stated goal that their design has taken the path to humanity, than BMWs design are anti-metaphysical.


But now back to MB.
Their main problem IMO, is that they desperately want to be loved by everyone.

They don't want to be seen as an old man/excesively conservative (design) auto maker, nor a love it or hate BMW type.

And in this process of balancing they can produce some really goofy designs, witch have neither the majesty of the older ones, nor the artistical shock and
awe influence/growndbreaking force of the avant-garde BMW designs.

MB represent the search for compromise/balance that on several ocasions goes wrong.

Lol you guys are presenting a problem wich is invisible for 90% of the ppl in the world.. good luck..

Well I still love the CL Artist ...please don't misunderstand me.

I think you are probably right that most people will not notice ...but most people are not as critical as us.

Audi and BMW are extremely design-led manufacturers ...not just in the automotive industry, but in all industry -- they are world leaders. Mercedes is also a leader of course, but I feel they have lost focus in recent times. Audi has developed an extremely strong brand image -- there is a very strong design-led culture at Audi. Mercedes is all over the place -- trying to incorporate old design cues with current styling trends inspired [mostly] by BMW.

If you take a look at the work of car design students in recent times, it is hard to see much inspiration from Mercedes in their work -- even Hussein's designs (whether it is intentional or not) take inspiration from BMW -- I would love him to comment on this discussion. Audi and BMW are probably the most favoured brands for most design students right now -- design students are usually very up-to-date with the latest trends.

The BMW 6 series is a very bold design .....maybe not the prettiest car ever -- and most of us would say the CL is better-looking. But the 6er is a much more fully-evolved aesthetic -- the Mercedes looks slightly eclectic -- much like it has been designed as a series of design cues "Mercedes Metaphors" arranged around a relatively dynamic shape -- but the overall result is not entirely harmonious. Whether you like the "Bangle Beemers" or not, they are confidently conceived around a much more fully developed design philosophy.

As a reprezentative of the "bangle bimmers" the Z4 (M) Coupe is IMO far more worthy to be considered than the 6er.

There really is no such thing as avant-garde design ...all predictions of "the future" are invariably set to be seen from a contemporary context ..thus, the results will inevitably be expressions of the present -- but that may be at a very highly cultured level, like concept cars.

Well Audi is changing -- they have established a strong position -- they are not about sudden and irrational change ....that would go completely against the aesthetic principles of the brand. As I said earlier, Audi is a design-led manufacturer ...that goes much further than just the appearence of their cars .... Audi's aesthetic philosophy is holistic -- it is incorporated into the entire system of the brand: marketing, manufacturing, and corporate.

Vorsprung durch Technik -- this is more than just a pragmatic slogan -- it is a metaphysical one too -- the whole culture of the brand is built around this pusuit of advancement through technology -- it is a clean, all encopassing, and very Teutonic aesthetic.

Well sure ...it is clearly a part of the evolution of the brand ...I think we have seen quite clearly that Audi have become more expessive with their recent designs

That is a moot point Imhotep Evil -- I don't think Audi is following BMW in terms of actual design perse ...but of course BMW have been enormously influential in the design world ..Audi, being a pragmatic and receptive design-led company, are naturally going to take notice of design philosophies from other leaders ....but like BMW, that is not confined to the auto-industry ....but also from all facets of art, music, architecture, science, information technology and IT culture, philosophy, anthropology and sociology. There are people who are professional trend spotters -- they are employed by companies like Audi, Nike, IBM, etc. to research all manor of social, cultural, and design trends.


I am using the term metaphysics in a more general sense ... the subconscious, underlying associations of semiotics and specific aesthetics in our contemporary culture -- of course, these associations and meanings can vary from one culture to another ...or from person to person ...but also can change over time.


Well that was precisely my innitial point.

I'm trying my hardest not to call this whole thing a bunch of BS, but I do see the point about Audi. That said BMW has had just as much "go wrong" in their search for design greatness also. The 7-Series, 1-Series and the rear of the 6-Series are just plain unnattractive. Now we can wax over philosphy all day long, but at the end of the day it is what it is - very unnattractive. The only one of the three that can boast or claim to have an entirely attractive or cohessive is Audi, that I get and agree with, but no way I'm going for that with BMW.

No one liking BMW's designs can call another company's design's "goofy". That is plum ridiculous.

M

Quattro.*






















* Available as an option in most of their models.

Do you have any idea how cheesy that slogan really is? Lay off the magic mushrooms for a while, we are talking about cars and their desings and you guys are bringing stuff like Nietzsche here. Jesus!

Marcus ... you must understand that I am not necessarily referring to the actual vehicles ...but design philosophies behind them.

This is most certainly not BS ....this is very serious discussion. Audi and BMW have taken the lead (for now).

Bruno Sacco has left behind a great legacy at Mercedes -- but Sacco was an old-school Modernist, working with mid-twentieth century design principles ...those principles have been a part of Mercedes culture until very recently -- the S class, ML, CL .etc.. represent a shift in philosophy at Mercedes.

I still think Mercedes is a great manufacturer and in time they will start to emerge as a more powerful force. Chris Bangle has brought to BMW, a late-twentieth century Post-Modern approach to the whole concept of car design. I realize this conversation is getting academic ...I am sorry about that, but it is difficult to explain concisely.

Design is far more than just making things look pretty ...Chris Bangle, for example, takes a highly academic approach to design.

Well, then they do not translate their interpretaion of the future, seen from a contemporary point of view, in production cars.
They don't have that certain thing to make them interesting, tough they are beautifull.


When cars such as the R8 become their standard, rather than their exception, that's when they'll become a design leader.
I contradict your point that Audi's philosophy is wholistic, since they don't have one. That's what VW/Audi din't realise when they started chassing the big boys.


Don't buy this. Their brand doesn't have a culture of their own.


Switching from Aero To Bauhaus to Humanity is evolution ?!
Not to mention that Audi have not created the brand image/philosophy of their own like the rest.


The idea/philosophy is the same, humanity, they said it themselves. It's just that the execution is very diferent.


Agreed.


Are you not comfusing "man sybolical animal" with "metaphysical" man ?!

Also Nietzsche did not have a problem with religion in general, but with monotheistic/abrahamic religions.

In his critics of metaphysics Nietzsche was outraged by the fact that Shopenhauer considered moral (cristian moral based on the notion of sin ) part of the human nature.

And the metaphysical man thus becamed a christian man, a creation of christian philosophers. On his work "Birth of Tragedy" he proved Shopenhauer wrong.

Metaphycs is thus a buch of sterile words/sentences, and the metaphysical man an illusion-invention, anti-human. But man, seen by Nietzsche, is a creator, capable of developing symbols, his own universe.


So we share the same opinion here, we just expres it a bit diferently.

lol this discussion is to heavy for me..
interesting buy to heavy..
would love to have some car designers like Hussein and such to comment if they really do appriciate BMW and AUDI design more than MB as you guys claim..

When cars such as the R8 become their standard, rather than their exception, that's when they'll become a design leader.
I contradict your point that Audi's philosophy is holistic, since they don't have one. That's what VW/Audi din't realise when they started chassing the big boys.


Don't buy this. Their brand doesn't have a culture of their own.


I simply cannot agree with you Imhotep Evil, Audi have most certainly developed a strong principle/philosophy around the expression of technology through design. It is a very direct aesthetic, less emotional than BMW ..but no less metaphysical.


Switching from Aero To Bauhaus to Humanity is evolution ?!
Not to mention that Audi have not created the brand image/philosophy of their own like the rest.

I have no idea what you are talking about ...Audi have been very consistent ...slowly evolving over time but still with the same basic tenets integrated into all their products.


The idea/philosophy is the same, humanity, they said it themselves. It's just that the execution is very diferent.

So What? ...BMW didn't invent this idea either ...one could argue that Ferrari have been "human" since the beginning ...and certainly Pagani are very "human" -- what they are referring to is design that arouses emotional responses ....through semiotics and aesthetics.

The problem with assuming that the Modernist approach to design is lacking in "humanity" is that is fails to understand it in its actual context. Modern design, from which Audi takes its roots, is less emotional and more academic ....the aesthetics are perceived through an intellectual context -- much like how mathematicians or physicists can be deeply moved by the beauty of an equation or formula. Some people will listen to Mozart and just hear pretty music, while others will be deeply stimulated ...lifted to a higher place aesthetically or spiritually.

Have you ever had chills from a sculpture or painting -- or felt tears in your eyes as you listen to some music -- something that stimulates your whole sense of being human?

Are you not comfusing "man sybolical animal" with "metaphysical" man ?!

Also Nietzsche did not have a problem with religion in general, but with monotheistic/abrahamic religions.

In his critics of metaphysics Nietzsche was outraged by the fact that Shopenhauer considered moral (cristian moral based on the notion of sin ) part of the human nature.

And the metaphysical man thus becamed a christian man, a creation of christian philosophers. On his work "Birth of Tragedy" he proved Shopenhauer wrong.

Metaphycs is thus a buch of sterile words/sentences, and the metaphysical man an illusion-invention, anti-human. But man, seen by Nietzsche, is a creator, capable of developing symbols, his own universe.

I am no expert in Nietzsche, Imhotep Evil, I am impressed with your knowledge of him and Schopenhauer ...Nietzsche was the supreme existentialist ... he believed in human subjective existence over metaphysics. This does not directly relate to our discussion here.

I am using the term metaphysical as it relates to abstract thoughts and associations -- these may be subjective or cultural.

All I am saying is BMW and Audi are working at the most cutting-edge level of production car design right now -- design students are almost invariably attracted to the most cutting-edge design.

We have said on numerous occasions that we wished Hussein was working for DCX -- they need to be bold enough to lead the auto-world world with new design ideas as much as they lead with their technology.

It seems odd to me that the most cutting-edge manufacturer in the world, in terms of technology, is so conservative with its design.

Mercedes can afford to be far more adventurous -- they certainly have spent a fortune on cutting edge, high-culture architecture recently -- I hope we start to see some much more adventurous and forward-thinking designs soon -- BMW and Audi are very good ...but Mercedes could still be better -- there is so much opportunity right now ...they just need to be brave enough to do it. BMW took great risks with Bangle ...but it paid off.

Mercedes do not have to be so unconventional as BMW ...but they should be more forward-thinking. I wish one of these German manufacturers would be brave enough to finally banish wood from their top luxury interiors -- or at least use it in a more interesting way, the wood thrown around the interior of the S class looks like a passionless afterthought.

When cars such as the R8 become their standard, rather than their exception, that's when they'll become a design leader.
I contradict your point that Audi's philosophy is holistic, since they don't have one. That's what VW/Audi din't realise when they started chassing the big boys.


Don't buy this. Their brand doesn't have a culture of their own.


I simply cannot agree with you Imhotep Evil, Audi have most certainly developed a strong principle/philosophy around the expression of technology through design. It is a very direct aesthetic, less emotional than BMW ..but no less metaphysical.

Here we'll agree to disagree. I would use the word sybolical/"tragical" as oposed to metaphysical.




Switching from Aero To Bauhaus to Humanity is evolution ?!
Not to mention that Audi have not created the brand image/philosophy of their own like the rest.

I have no idea what you are talking about ...Audi have been very consistent ...slowly evolving over time but still with the same basic tenets integrated into all their products.

Aero, Bauhaus, Humanity.
These are the design philosophies that Audi has chased/used/switched to in the last 25 years.




The idea/philosophy is the same, humanity, they said it themselves. It's just that the execution is very diferent.

So What? ...BMW didn't invent this idea either ...one could argue that Ferrari have been "human" since the beginning ...and certainly Pagani are very "human" -- what they are referring to is design that arouses emotional responses ....through semiotics and aesthetics.

Nope, BMW have been the ones who came up with the Humanity philosophy in design. For example, the asimetry of the BMW concepts, when asked Bangle replied that humans are not symetrical.

The arousial of emotional responses does not necesarily equall the Humanity philosophy chased by BMW.

As for Ferrari, in the begining it was about shape follows purpose (= to win races). Same with Pagani, their car looks like a LeMans sport-prototype from the 1980s.


The problem with assuming that the Modernist approach to design is lacking in "humanity" is that is fails to understand it in its actual context. Modern design, from which Audi takes its roots, is less emotional and more academic ....the metaphysics are perceived through an intellectual context -- much like how mathematicians or physicists can be deeply moved by the beauty of an equation or formula ...what may appear to be very uninteresting viewed through one context, can be very stimulation when viewed in another. Some people will listen to Mozart and just hear pretty music, while others will be deeply stimulated ...lifted to a higher place aesthetically or spiritually.

Have you ever had chills from a sculpture or painting -- or wept uncontrollably at some music that moves you -- something that stimulates your whole sense of humanity?


My point from my view is that Audi don't have a philosophy of their own behind their designs.
They, said that they wanted "to capture the human link", but BMW said the same thing earlier. I don't see how Audi is chasing after the modernist-lacking_of_humanity aproach, when themselves said quite contrary.


Are you not comfusing "man sybolical animal" with "metaphysical" man ?!

Also Nietzsche did not have a problem with religion in general, but with monotheistic/abrahamic religions.

In his critics of metaphysics Nietzsche was outraged by the fact that Shopenhauer considered moral (cristian moral based on the notion of sin ) part of the human nature.

And the metaphysical man thus becamed a christian man, a creation of christian philosophers. On his work "Birth of Tragedy" he proved Shopenhauer wrong.

Metaphycs is thus a buch of sterile words/sentences, and the metaphysical man an illusion-invention, anti-human. But man, seen by Nietzsche, is a creator, capable of developing symbols, his own universe.

I am no expert in Nietzsche, Imhotep Evil, I am impressed with your knowledge of him and Schopenhauer ...Nietzsche was the supreme existentialist ... he believed in human subjective existence over metaphysics. This does not directly relate to our discussion here.

I am using the term metaphysical as it relates to abstract thoughts and associations -- these may be subjective or cultural.

The point of it was, that for what you're saying Nietzsce would have used the words sybolical and "tragic", not metaphysical.

Geez, I wish I had the time to post to such valuable opinions as Roberto has posted. I understand where he`s coming from. Looks I missed out on most of the fun here because of work.

I will say this though, (I don`t have much time) but Mercedes design estblishements were literally reinvented by Bruno Sacco when he came on the scene some time back. His direction should have evolved in a revoultioary
mannor. This is what I was expecint the new designs to flow from and I know other MB faners were expecting the same. I believe the new design director at MB is following "BMW" fads too much. This is the main reason MB has slightly lost it`s touch with the currant designs. MB is trying it`s best to stay in the "fresh" game and this is main problem with the designs. Despite my minor gripe I still love the CL63 AMG!! That car is hands down the best looking non-exotic 2-door on the planet right now! Bow-down!!

Imhotep Evil, you have some very strong opinions and some unique ways of seeing things. ...but I must explain what I mean by metaphsical.

Symbolical is too specific Imhotep Evil ... it refers to signs and symbols with specific meanings. I am referring to the "coded" messages (signs and symbols) suggested in the design that arouse the subconscious.

Metaphysics in Modern art and design refers mostly to the subconscious associations a person makes with particular signs and symbols (semiotics). These associations may be learned (cultural/environmental) ...or gained through personal experience (subjective understanding). Post-Modern design generally communicates more directly, less intellectually and more emotionaly -- this is what BMW are trying to achieve with their "Human design" -- in this respect, you are correct, it is anti-metaphysical design.

The human link (as you put it) in high Modernism (Bauhaus) design -- is not so directly emotional ...but can achieve a high degree of aesthetic stimulation, however, this requires a cultural understanding of the Modern context -- most of us do have a cultural understanding of this Modern context -- it is the context of high technology and industrial engineering -- this is metaphysical design. Audi still subscribe to this methodology ...but they are a Post-Modern car company and so this Modernist ideology is only one aspect of the Audi design philosophy -- I see irony in Audi's design philosophy ....that is a purely Post-Modern trait.

Design plays a major part in communicating these high-technological values of contemporary industrial engineering and information technology .....it creates an overall "effect", expressing and arousing our awareness of the "culture of technology".

Also, you are talking rubbish when you say BMW created the concept of humanity in design -- God almighty, that is one of the tenets of Post-Modern architecture -- nothing new there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imhotep Evil As for Ferrari, in the begining it was about shape follows purpose (= to win races). Same with Pagani, their car looks like a LeMans sport-prototype from the 1980s.

Give me a break Imhotep Evil -- Ferrari and Pagani road cars have never been purely "form follows function" -- they are absolutely loaded with complex subliminal references (codes) that go far beyond anything pragmatic and essential to performance. They are designed to heighten our senses, arouse our subconscious -- stimulating primal instincts and emotions ........excitement, aggression, lust, sex. We would mostly associate this with the Italian passion for beauty in design -- but it stimulates very basic human desires.

Yes I understand what you are saying Imhotep Evil, but the design language Audi uses is often more metaphysical than "human" -- I think I worded that sentance (above) a bit incorrectly. Audi's design language still refers back to a Modernist aesthetic ...but from a post-modern context -- this is ironical ..but irony is in itself a purely Post-Modern attribute.




I think Audi have evolved through different stages -- the poly-philosophical aspect of Audi's culture is utterly indicative of the Post-Modern condition -- a kind of cultural schizophrenia ...Audi are not alone there ...both BMW and Mercedes have also experimented with various ideas over the past 25 years.

Quote:

The arousial of emotional responses does not necesarily equall the Humanity philosophy chased by BMW.

So how do you define "humanity" in design? ....I have always assumed it was about emotion and a heightened level of sensory stimuli.