Sport Auto - Nordschleife laptimes


Guibo, let's see....is the GTS more of a track car and less of a road car proper? I would argue it is and in fact far more so than the car it replaced, for a start they removed the rear seats turning it into a two seater and fitted a roll cage which are two typical things done to turn a road car into a race car, not saying that's what the GTS is because in a typical race it wouldn't fare too well against its main competition.
You can butter it up, put what ever twist you want on the GTS but the bottomline is it wasn't the car it could or should have been.
Deckhook, whether the GTS is more of a track car than the CSL is immaterial. Get back to your original contention: that a track-day type car is made for faster times. The slightly off-tangent argument here seems to indicate your position is indefensible. There are many tracks, including the Nurburgring, that discourage the use of timing equipment and there are plenty of cars made from the ground up to be track cars, yet don't advertise low track times as a primary concern. There there appears to be none of the scrutiny in faster lap times among the likes of Lotus, Caterham, or Radicals. Perhaps because, outside of some internet tech-sheet warriors, nobody gives a flying crap. Basically, there is no maths you can apply which would suggest the GTS is any worse of a car than the CSL.
You can butter it up, put whatever twist you want on the GTS but the bottomline is that you are in no better position to determine what is better for BMW than BMW. You have, in fact, found to be wanting in your various assessments about what other cars are worth, and have shown curious criticism against BMW but not other manufacturers who employ similar methods. Your avoidance of a point-blank question indicates that it is you who would like to twist and butter up. Otherwise, I should take that silence as saying that you really would rather have cars sitting unsold on dealer lots.
 
Deckhook, whether the GTS is more of a track car than the CSL is immaterial. Get back to your original contention: that a track-day type car is made for faster times. The slightly off-tangent argument here seems to indicate your position is indefensible. There are many tracks, including the Nurburgring, that discourage the use of timing equipment and there are plenty of cars made from the ground up to be track cars, yet don't advertise low track times as a primary concern. There there appears to be none of the scrutiny in faster lap times among the likes of Lotus, Caterham, or Radicals. Perhaps because, outside of some internet tech-sheet warriors, nobody gives a flying crap. Basically, there is no maths you can apply which would suggest the GTS is any worse of a car than the CSL.
You can butter it up, put whatever twist you want on the GTS but the bottomline is that you are in no better position to determine what is better for BMW than BMW. You have, in fact, found to be wanting in your various assessments about what other cars are worth, and have shown curious criticism against BMW but not other manufacturers who employ similar methods. Your avoidance of a point-blank question indicates that it is you who would like to twist and butter up. Otherwise, I should take that silence as saying that you really would rather have cars sitting unsold on dealer lots.


Not that I disagree with the rest of what you say, but the CLS is clearly better. It made greater improvements over the M3 E46 than the GTS did over the M3 E92. I'm talking abou the car itself, not about all other thing related to it, like costs, sales and such.
 
Guibo, what a load of twaddle. Sure we could comment on other brands or individual model and I could easily point the same finger but since it was the Alpina that is the nearest equivalent to a BMW it's only appropriate to discuss the GTS, after all it's BMW's equivalent trackday model.

You claim I only criticise BMW, sorry but not two post previous I actually praised the M3 and the GTS so you're talking BS right there. lol

My argument is BMW did the bare minimum with the GTS compared to the CSL yet tarted it up to appear as a properly focused track car, great car no doubt but just no where near as good as it should have been. And by comparison the CSL looked to be a bargain, something I never thought I would ever say.
 
Not that I disagree with the rest of what you say, but the CLS is clearly better. It made greater improvements over the M3 E46 than the GTS did over the M3 E92. I'm talking abou the car itself, not about all other thing related to it, like costs, sales and such.
Or maybe there was more room for improvement in the E46 generation? Look how each generation of 3er has gotten heavier (not just beause of stricter government mandates but also because of changing consumer tastes), and the GTS could not take advantage of a carbon roof over its base car like the CSL could.
But costs/sales are all intrinsically tied into how good or bad a car can be, or how it can be perceived to be. As enthusiasts, we applaud the CSL, but from BMW's perspective (and their shareholders), if they were to repeat the anemic sales that the CSL had near the end, such a business model would not likely be tolerable.
 
Guibo, what a load of twaddle. Sure we could comment on other brands or individual model and I could easily point the same finger but since it was the Alpina that is the nearest equivalent to a BMW it's only appropriate to discuss the GTS, after all it's BMW's equivalent trackday model.

You claim I only criticise BMW, sorry but not two post previous I actually praised the M3 and the GTS so you're talking BS right there. lol

My argument is BMW did the bare minimum with the GTS compared to the CSL yet tarted it up to appear as a properly focused track car, great car no doubt but just no where near as good as it should have been. And by comparison the CSL looked to be a bargain, something I never thought I would ever say.

In other words, the GTS seems to be a more hard-core car than the CSL, but having failed to deliver our expectations, in end up being a lesser car than the CSL, especially when just a "335i" tuned by Alpina delivers the more or less the same performance.
 
Or maybe there was more room for improvement in the E46 generation? Look how each generation of 3er has gotten heavier (not just beause of stricter government mandates but also because of changing consumer tastes), and the GTS could not take advantage of a carbon roof over its base car like the CSL could.
But costs/sales are all intrinsically tied into how good or bad a car can be, or how it can be perceived to be. As enthusiasts, we applaud the CSL, but from BMW's perspective (and their shareholders), if they were to repeat the anemic sales that the CSL had near the end, such a business model would not likely be tolerable.

According to BMW the GTS/CRT were "studies" to see how such models would be recieved. Apparently quite well, as BMW considers bringing them back with the F8X and probably M2. Then, how does Mercedes manage to build so many BS models? I don't think there are loosing money.
 
Guibo, what a load of twaddle. Sure we could comment on other brands or individual model and I could easily point the same finger but since it was the Alpina that is the nearest equivalent to a BMW it's only appropriate to discuss the GTS, after all it's BMW's equivalent trackday model.

You claim I only criticise BMW, sorry but not two post previous I actually praised the M3 and the GTS so you're talking BS right there. lol

My argument is BMW did the bare minimum with the GTS compared to the CSL yet tarted it up to appear as a properly focused track car, great car no doubt but just no where near as good as it should have been. And by comparison the CSL looked to be a bargain, something I never thought I would ever say.
But the thing is, you tend to not point the finger at other brands. ;)

This is praise of the GTS?:
"And tell me what was so great about the GTS? :confused:"
Simple fact is, you paint BMW as being greedy for overcharging on the 6er and base it entirely on secondhand market prices, apparently oblivious to the fact that McLaren MP4-12C residuals are piss-poor too. You paint BMW as greedy for overpricing the GTS (which is sold out), yet remain silent when the Aston Zagato can barely reach 2/3rds of planned production. I don't say that you never criticize other brands, merely that you don't do so with nearly the same fervor you do for BMW, especially when there are other brands doing much the same thing.

Why wouldn't the CSL be a bargain? There were far more of them made so per unit costs can be lower. That one car is a bargain doesn't necessarily mean another is overpriced, which is the position you've taken all along with the GTS. Contrary to what you might think, there is such a thing as the middle ground...
 
According to BMW the GTS/CRT were "studies" to see how such models would be recieved. Apparently quite well, as BMW considers bringing them back with the F8X and probably M2. Then, how does Mercedes manage to build so many BS models? I don't think there are loosing money.
If they were received well, then there shouldn't be complaining about BMW's cost/pricing model for the GTS. As for Mercedes Black Series, I don't think anyone says they are losing money. That doesn't have to be mentioned. It's possible there are different priorities between these companies, and different profit schemes in place for these particular cars. Are the BS strictly "studies" to see how such models are received? Maybe they are. And maybe BMW already know what they need to know with the GTS/CRT.
With the CSL, we know that that is a direction that BMW would not want to repeat again. Remember what Gerhard Richter said of the CSL: They went through such trouble to remove weight from the car, yet paying customers piled the weight back on with options. Those who wanted a purer lightweight in the vein of the 3.0CSL or 2002tii had such a car from BMW, in the E46 CSL. Yet they left BMW hanging with cars unsold on dealer lots. Gee, thanks a lot "enthusiasts." The theory doesn't really work unless you're willing to step up and fund it.
 
It's funny you highlight when I criticise BMW but leave out all the occasions I actually praise their products, you see when something is done well I praise it and when not I don't. You talk about 6 series comparing it against McLarens and Astons as if they are the same thing, how bizarre, why would I discuss them in the same context.

Let's stick with one comparison instead of multiple ones.
 
If they were received well, then there shouldn't be complaining about BMW's cost/pricing model for the GTS. As for Mercedes Black Series, I don't think anyone says they are losing money. That doesn't have to be mentioned. It's possible there are different priorities between these companies, and different profit schemes in place for these particular cars. Are the BS strictly "studies" to see how such models are received? Maybe they are. And maybe BMW already know what they need to know with the GTS/CRT.
With the CSL, we know that that is a direction that BMW would not want to repeat again. Remember what Gerhard Richter said of the CSL: They went through such trouble to remove weight from the car, yet paying customers piled the weight back on with options. Those who wanted a purer lightweight in the vein of the 3.0CSL or 2002tii had such a car from BMW, in the E46 CSL. Yet they left BMW hanging with cars unsold on dealer lots. Gee, thanks a lot "enthusiasts." The theory doesn't really work unless you're willing to step up and fund it.

I know that. That is why I like the "underpowered and cheap BRZ/86". I don't need more. If in the time of the the M3 CSL I had my licence and could barely afford it. I'd buy. Same would go for the M3 GTS if it was as I expeted it or the 1M. But for me personally only, they failed. Same goes for the LFA, if I had even half the amount needed to buy it, I'd get a credit for the other half and get it. Well, but that is me. About the BRZ/GT86 I'm not worring. It is not limited, on the contrary it is only going to be better.

Let us get back to topic: N-Ring Laptimes!

:)
 
It's funny you highlight when I criticise BMW but leave out all the occasions I actually praise their products, you see when something is done well I praise it and when not I don't. You talk about 6 series comparing it against McLarens and Astons as if they are the same thing, how bizarre, why would I discuss them in the same context.
Let's stick with one comparison instead of multiple ones.
Of course you would not dicuss them within the same context, because you know your argument would lose. These are all examples of you showing a fundamental ignorance of how the market works, much like your criticism of BMW not learning from their "mistake" with the previous 6er pricing.

When I repeat your post where you are obviously criticizing the GTS, that is clearly not the "BS" that you claimed it was. I'm not sure how it's so terribly relevant that the Alpina has returned track times comparable to the GTS. Was this Alpina even on the market at the same time as the GTS? Sure, if you don't have to foot the up-front development costs of safety and the basic structure and engine, you can turn out a very fast modified product. That's what tuners and those deemed by TUV to be "manufacturers" have done for decades.
 
Mighty impressive indeed.

P.S.
When's the M135i getting tested on the ring, I'll be surprised if it's not closer to 8:10.
 

Trending content


Back
Top