Poll The Princes of Sachsenring 2014 (vs The King)

[PC Valkyrie]

you should look up a video on youtube, it's not because of acceleration that they dominated, but because of the way they constructed the engine/drivetrain (center of gravity)

Yes, Mercedes AMG PETRONAS' engine configuration was brilliant and yielded many benefits, as illustrated in the video you posted. However, a major part of their dominance was the fact that they were so much faster in a straight line compared to Red Bull and Ferrari. Red Bull claimed they were down at least 75HP compared to the Mercedes power unit.

 

[PC Valkyrie]

Ignoring the 911 times which were all essentially performed on a different track layout with exuberant grass usage, look at the 650S, Speciale and Huracan warm braking test from 100-0kph. The Speciale is generating almost 10% more deceleration force at 15degC relative to the 650S at 25degC. Now all these cars have more than enough brake to lock the wheels at 100kph, so the limiting factor is the level of adhesion between the tyre and the road, pointing to the fact that the 650S is on inferior tyres, yet still running within 0.39s of the Speciale due to massive straight line speed. Even the GT3 being tested at 7degC in the middle of winter is generating more braking g in the same test on the MPSC2s.

So in summary, looking at this test another way, fit Trofeo Rs or MPSC2s on the 650S and it'll be in the high 1:31s.

It's a great source of confusion that the PZero Corsa System is consistently referred to as 'PZero Corsa'. Two different tyres. The PZero Corsa was a legacy semi-slick competition tyre that was replaced by the Trofeo R. Note tread difference.

PZero Corsa
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Pirelli/P-Zero-Corsa--.htm

PZero Corsa System
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Pirelli/PZero-Corsa-System.htm

The confusion is further compounded by the fact that manufacturers are allowed to underrate treadwear and frequently do because it makes the tyre look sportier, hence why the PZero Corsa System ended up with the same UTQG treadwear rating as the Trofeo R, even though anyone will testify that the actual treadwear is nowhere remotely close.

So what we consistently end up with is a McLaren on a max performance summer tyre against other cars wearing competition semi-slicks and soft compound competition Dunlops and journalists complaining about cornering performance. Meanwhile in the aftermarket, people fit MPSC2s on the 650S and all of a sudden the cornering performance starts to equal competitors and the straight-line speed remains.

As a side note the Huracan lap didn't look like a very decent effort on behalf of the tester either. It wasn't using the full track width and I was extremely impressed by its handling and traction. I didn't see any of the alleged 'understeer' referenced in the video.

I don't doubt that different tires can yield different laptimes, just like the same tire with different degrees of wear can yield different laptimes.

Remember the Autocar head to head comparison test of the 458 Speciale, 650S, and 991 GT3? Supposedly, they were all on the "same tires". The Speciale was a whole second faster than 650S, while the 650S just beat the GT3 by 0.2 seconds on a circuit. Again the 650S was fastest in a straight line with the highest trap speed of all 3 and the GT3 was the slowest in a straight line. Sutcliffe simply said the 650S understeered too much.

 

[Emu]

I don't doubt that different tires can yield different laptimes, just like the same tire with different degrees of wear can yield different laptimes.

Remember the Autocar head to head comparison test of the 458 Speciale, 650S, and 991 GT3? Supposedly, they were all on the "same tires". The Speciale was a whole second faster than 650S, while the 650S just beat the GT3 by 0.2 seconds on a circuit. Again the 650S was fastest in a straight line with the highest trap speed of all 3 and the GT3 was the slowest in a straight line. Sutcliffe simply said the 650S understeered too much.

But again they weren't on the same tyres though. The Speciale was on semi-slick MPSC2s and the GT3 was on the sticky Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, whereas the Corsa System is a fully treaded max performance summer tyre by comparison. You can see from the table that's there's a 10% difference in longitudinal g during the warm 100-0kph braking test, even though the Speciale is tested at 10degC lower temperature and it's probably a similar case for lateral g.

The fact that Ferrari and Porsche are fitting Michelin Cup semi-slicks as standard is proof of just how scared they are of McLaren. Ferrari fit PZCS on the LaFerrari but won't even permit testing. Put MPSC2s or Trofeo Rs on the 650S and it will beat the Speciale, as many 650S owners have found. The cornering and braking situation then becomes even, after which the 650S literally takes a dump on the Speciale on the straights.

All cars do something once you pass the limit, that's just a given, idiots who drift for the camera prefer oversteer but the majority of people driving a road car on a public road don't want that.

 

[savage-It]

But again they weren't on the same tyres though. The Speciale was on semi-slick MPSC2s and the GT3 was on the sticky Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, whereas the Corsa System is a fully treaded max performance summer tyre by comparison. You can see from the table that's there's a 10% difference in longitudinal g during the warm 100-0kph braking test, even though the Speciale is tested at 10degC lower temperature and it's probably a similar case for lateral g.

The fact that Ferrari and Porsche are fitting Michelin Cup semi-slicks as standard is proof of just how scared they are of McLaren. Ferrari fit PZCS on the LaFerrari but won't even permit testing. Put MPSC2s or Trofeo Rs on the 650S and it will beat the Speciale, as many 650S owners have found. The cornering and braking situation then becomes even, after which the 650S literally takes a dump on the Speciale on the straights.

All cars do something once you pass the limit, that's just a given, idiots who drift for the camera prefer oversteer but the majority of people driving a road car on a public road don't want that.

The Gt3 was on Michelin Cup 2 too not Dunlop Sport Maxx Race reading at the table. But I agree that the 650S on Cup 2 or Trofeo R would perform better than today. So my question is simple: are they stupid at McLaren continuing to use those tires or are they simply too smart ?is it a strategy or a fault?

 

[Emu]

The Gt3 was on Michelin Cup 2 too not Dunlop Sport Maxx Race reading at the table. But I agree that the 650S on Cup 2 or Trofeo R would perform better than today. So my question is simple: are they stupid at McLaren continuing to use those tires or are they simply too smart ?is it a strategy or a fault?

Yeah sorry, I was actually referring to the Autocar test that PC Valkyrie referenced where the GT3 wore Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, not this test.

I think it's all tied to a Mclaren-Pirelli F1 deal, it depends on how you look at it though. McLaren is a British car, it rains a lot here. PZCSs outperform MPSC2s and Trofeo Rs in the rain, and are probably better when it's extremely cold. The PZCS is actually a more genuine road tyre, whereas the MPSC2s and Trofeo Rs aren't really. In a way it makes the car cooler, they hide the performance and then all the people who bought 458s find out about it on track days and don't understand. The standard tyre on the Huracan is also the PZCS but they nearly always send it out on Trofeo Rs and nobody cares much about it, but when a McLaren goes out on Trofeo Rs people throw a hissy fit. People also pour scorn on the 650S because it's fast in a straight line but I think it's pretty cool that it gets from 0-300kph as fast as a McLaren F1 and is considerably quicker at lower speeds, and that it's 14kg lighter than a GT3 and 26kg lighter than a Speciale. There's maybe also an issue here in that we've become too focused on track performance for what are essentially road cars.

This is an interesting article:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/reviews/a24402/driving-the-mclaren-650s-and-mp4-12c-gt3-back-to-back/

As a road-going proposition, the McLaren deserves nearly every superlative. It deserves to be the most popular supercar. This business being what it is, that won't happen. So think of it as a secret, a knowing wink, a nod between the cognoscenti: for those of us who care about driving, the 650S is the one to have. It's the closest you can come to folding yourself into that claustrophobic seat and running for victory in the Pirelli World Challenge.

 

[Observer1]

But again they weren't on the same tyres though. The Speciale was on semi-slick MPSC2s and the GT3 was on the sticky Dunlop Sport Maxx Race, whereas the Corsa System is a fully treaded max performance summer tyre by comparison. You can see from the table that's there's a 10% difference in longitudinal g during the warm 100-0kph braking test, even though the Speciale is tested at 10degC lower temperature and it's probably a similar case for lateral g.

The fact that Ferrari and Porsche are fitting Michelin Cup semi-slicks as standard is proof of just how scared they are of McLaren. Ferrari fit PZCS on the LaFerrari but won't even permit testing. Put MPSC2s or Trofeo Rs on the 650S and it will beat the Speciale, as many 650S owners have found. The cornering and braking situation then becomes even, after which the 650S literally takes a dump on the Speciale on the straights.

All cars do something once you pass the limit, that's just a given, idiots who drift for the camera prefer oversteer but the majority of people driving a road car on a public road don't want that.

In the Autocar test, the 458S was on Pirelli P Zero Corsas as was the 650S, the GT3 was on MPSC2s.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-porsche-911-gt3-vs-ferrari-458-speciale-vs-mclaren-650s

SS references the tire choice around the 1:52 mark onwards on the video and the 650S was marked down for "too much understeer" against it's rivals and lack of handling precision, so it can not just be the tire choice as the 458S had the same tires fitted.

 

[Emu]

In the Autocar test, the 458S was on Pirelli P Zero Corsas as was the 650S, the GT3 was on MPSC2s. I've never known a magazine perform a test on non-standard, non-option tyres.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-porsche-911-gt3-vs-ferrari-458-speciale-vs-mclaren-650s

SS references the tire choice around the 1:52 mark onwards on the video and the 650S was marked down for "too much understeer" against it's rivals and lack of handling precision, so it can not just be the tire choice as the 458S had the same tires fitted.

He's got that wrong because MPSS is not an OEM tyre or an option for the GT3, it's either Dunlop Sport Maxx Race or MPSC2. And MPSC2 is the only OEM tyre for the 458 Speciale and I'm sure I've seen the tyres stated as what I said originally elsewhere.

991 GT3
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Porsche&autoYear=2015&autoModel=911 GT3&autoModClar=&frontWidth=245/&frontRatio=35&frontDiameter=20&frontSortCode=59849&rearWidth=305/&rearRatio=30&rearDiameter=20&rearSortCode=60158&tab=OE&filterType=oe

http://www.zrtyres.co.uk/tyre-news/the-new-dunlop-sport-maxx-race-and-its-fitment-to-the-porsche-991-gt3

Dunlop's new sporty summer tyre has been developed perfectly for Porsche's premier sports car.

The international tyre manufacturer, which celebrates its 125th anniversary this year, designed the Sport Maxx Race to offer the best possible performance on the Porsche 991 GT3

https://www.stuttcars.com/porsche-models/911/991/gt3/

Tyres
The 991 GT3 is equipped with Dunlop Sport Maxx Race tyres, a new alternative to the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tyres. The sizes are 245/35 ZR20 (91Y) N0 and 305/30 ZR20 (103Y) XL N0.

http://treadmagazine.co.uk/motorsport/dunlops-sport-maxx-wins-fitment-race-for-new-porsche-911-gt3/

DUNLOP’S SPORT MAXX WINS FITMENT RACE FOR NEW PORSCHE 911 GT3

Speciale
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Ferrari&autoYear=2014&autoModel=458 Speciale&autoModClar=&frontWidth=245/&frontRatio=35&frontDiameter=20&frontSortCode=59849&rearWidth=305/&rearRatio=30&rearDiameter=20&rearSortCode=60158&tab=OE&filterType=oe

http://www.michelin.com/eng/media-room/press-and-news/press-releases/Products-Services/Ferrari-chooses-Michelin-Pilot-Sport-Cup-2-tyres-as-sole-fitment-on-its-458-Speciale

Ferrari chooses Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tyres as sole fitment on its 458 Speciale

You'll see that in the Sachsenring trial the GT3 used MPSC2.

I don't even think you can get PZero Corsa Systems for the Speciale.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Ferrari&autoYear=2014&autoModel=458 Speciale&autoModClar=&frontWidth=245/&frontRatio=35&frontDiameter=20&frontSortCode=59849&rearWidth=305/&rearRatio=30&rearDiameter=20&rearSortCode=60158&tab=All

 

[Observer1]

Why would SS make this up or even mention it, clearly his point was that Autocar had tried to create a 'level playing field'?

 

[Emu]

Why would SS make this up or even mention it, clearly his point was that Autocar had tried to create a 'level playing field'? Btw, in the attached picture is a 458S with PZeros.View attachment 316476

Maybe he's confused. It's extremely unusual for new cars to be tested on non-OEM rubber, especially rubber that isn't even vehicle approved. That picture shows ordinary PZeros (not Corsa System) which are an OEM option and a replacement option for the 458 Italia, whereas PZero Corsa System is not.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Ferrari&autoYear=2014&autoModel=458 Italia&autoModClar=&frontWidth=235/&frontRatio=35&frontDiameter=20&frontSortCode=59853&rearWidth=295/&rearRatio=35&rearDiameter=20&rearSortCode=60157&tab=OE&filterType=oe

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Ferrari&autoYear=2014&autoModel=458 Italia&autoModClar=&frontWidth=235/&frontRatio=35&frontDiameter=20&frontSortCode=59853&rearWidth=295/&rearRatio=35&rearDiameter=20&rearSortCode=60157&tab=All

The other reason for my disbelief is that I'd swear blind that I've read otherwise elsewhere. The Speciale was also only 0.3s faster than a 12C Spider on the Autocar Dry Handling track with MPSC2s on and slower on Vairano again (even with 2 attempts) with MPSC2s on. Not much difference at Sachsenring either, again with MPSC2s. So how it fitted less grippy tyres, that aren't OEM and aren't offered as a compatible replacement, and became a whole second faster is pretty bizarre, even though he was using the heavier spider version of the 650S.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autocar_dry_handling_track.html
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/vairano_handling_course.html

Also see this from the McLife thread:

http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-650s/20705-mclaren-650s-vs-speciale-cs-991-gt3-2.html#post444713

I'd just like to add that someone who read the article noted that the tyres actually used were indeed MPSC2 for the Speciale and Dunlop SMR for the GT3.