7 Series (G11/G12) [Spy shots] BMW 7er (G11) Spy Pics & Info

[DblPen]

BMW and Mercedes Benz have different directions for design following in its cars. The S-Class is normally the start of the design for next generation of all its cars, while BMW it is definitely not the 7 series, the E23 followed 5 series/3 series design and mostly 6 series design of the 70's, the E32 followed E30 3 series design for 80's, E38 also followed the E36 3 series design themes for 90's, the turning point for BMW 7 series design was E65, it didn't follow any previous design theme and other BMW cars brought out after didn't follow its design them. This G11 looks like a an evolution of F01 but we will have to wait till all that tape is off. The interior maybe a mix of X5 like everybody is saying but no revolution like the E65 interior.

actually e38,e65 and f01 were always the starters of new design languages, probably with earlier 7ers also

 

[Betty Swollocks]

The S-Class is normally the start of the design for next generation of all its cars, while BMW it is definitely not the 7 series

This couldn't be more wrong.

 

[tomazino]

Start of the design for this Mercedes generation is A class, or Citan

 

[SKY]

Start of the design for this Mercedes generation is A class, or Citan

Woah, you've moved the debate to a whole new level with such an objetive appreciation.

That 3er comment is hard, we all get it.

 

[Carmaker1]

actually e38,e65 and f01 were always the starters of new design languages, probably with earlier 7ers also

Regarding exterior design, yes the E65 and F01 did initiate new BMW design language. I do not believe the E23, E32, & E38 fully did though. The first BMWs approved after Bangle was no longer directly leading BMW brand design were the E71 and F01. If one pays attention, no all-new BMW design proposals would've been approved in 2004.

Only those that had some design roots in 2003 or earlier, might have reached the design freeze like the E70, M3, E92/93, and E81/82. The next ones were the E71 and F01 in 2005. The first new BMW design proposal approved without Bangle fully present at BMW Group, was the F30 on March 2, 2009.

The E38 design was the last one frozen before Bangle arrived at BMW in Oct. 1992, while being salvaged under Boyke Boyer for 2.5 years. The first were the E39 and E37, that followed the E38 philosophy. The 1982 E30 had some cues related to the 70s models, yet had close design ties to the yet to be finished E32 (1983) and E34 (1985). The E31 (1986) and E36 (1987-88) bridged the gap between the E32-34 and the rounded design evolution philosophy delegated by Claus Luthe circa 1989, that later appeared on the E38, E39, and E46.

Unlike the E31 and E36, the E38 was the first BMW to fully follow the new rounded design paradigm established before Luthe left BMW in April 1990, while the E36 proved to be a mix and match of boxy and rounded, again mostly having its creative roots in 1987-88. He wasn't there for final approval of the E38, but like many of us know, he laid out the guidelines. The 3-series and X5 have often proven to be a bridge between old and new BMW design.

The E46's hooded headlamps and taillights each previewed the E38 LCI (late 1998), E53 X5 (1999), and the E65 finished several months later in 1998-99. Seems that, if not for the last minute 2003 changes to the E90 taillights, it would've done similarly. The E90 (related to E65 and E60) was more conservative, as were the later unrelated F01 and F10. Unlike the E60 and E87, it was finished 1 year after the E65 controversy. The F30 introduced headlights that are connected to the grille, which almost every new BMW follows and so will the G11 and G30.

The E53 X5 (and Z8) was the last all-new BMW to partly utilize the rounded evolution of the original Neue Klasse philosophy and driver-oriented cockpit (borrowed from the E39) until the E70. In fact, the X5 is probably the only current BMW model that managed to never lose the driver-focused cockpit since the E21 was introduced. The E70 reintroduced the angled dash.

The E46, E53, E52 Z8 were also rare bridge gap before the Bangle revolution in 2001-02, with only the Z8 having a semblance of the new interior philosophy with a non-driver angled dash.

Not sure where this fits in???

"Modernized" BMW design

"Flush" BMW design-Bridge gap

Rounded Design Philosophy established

Rounded Bangle influence-Bridge gap

Official Bangle Revolution

 

[Deleted member 1071]

I seem to recall that the R107 Mercedes-Benz SL was the precursor of M-Bs' new exterior design language of the early 1970s'. The W116 S-Class mimicked many of the R107 design details. One could also argue that it was the M-B W111 220SE/300SE coupe/cabriolet that ushered the exterior design paradigm seen in the W108 S-Class cars.

 

[Carmaker1]

I seem to recall that the R107 Mercedes-Benz SL was the precursor of M-Bs' new exterior design language of the early 1970s'. The W116 S-Class mimicked many of the R107 design details. One could also argue that it was the M-B W111 220SE/300SE coupe/cabriolet that ushered the exterior design paradigm seen in the W108 S-Class cars.

Excellent observation! I also noticed that as well. The W126 was the first S-Class to receive that distinction, but the W140 was almost a much bigger and more flush W124 with R129 cues. The 1993-95 facelift of the W124 made it nearly identical from B-pillar forward to the S-Class. The W220 was designed parallel to the A-Class and both were done by Steve Mattin (first W220 sketch in Oct. 1992, Jan. 1993 for A-Class). Is it even possible that the MB overly rounded design idiom started with the R170 SLK? Like the 3-Series, the E-Class has always been a design bridge gap at MB since the W124. The W210 was somewhat boxy, yet introduced four-eye headlight signature.

Unlike Jaguar, BMW and Mercedes-Benz have a more varied product line, so I have a question. I wonder what exactly happens when a lead designer (not chief or director) is forced to work on two critical models on the same time? This happened to Joji Nagashima with the E39 and Z3 in 1992-93 and Steve Mattin on the W220 and A168 in 1994-95.

Back on topic (somewhat).... If one thinks about it, Head of BMW Brand Design Karim Habib worked for Mercedes-Benz for a full 2 years between March 2009 and February 2011. He was present when the W222 was still being designed, after it was frozen, and may have seen prototypes of it too. He returned to BMW about 1 to 1 1/2 years after likely seeing it, as BMW was undergoing the 1:3/1:4/1:5 clay design stages on the G11.

I am well aware of non-disclosure contracts and not being allowed to take intellectual property of a previous employer with you to another job. Perhaps his personal knowing of all aspects W222 design, helped ease competitive concerns for the G11 development team? If they knew what the S-Class looked like in 2011, they knew what was sufficient regarding exterior and interior design for the G11. This may be old news, but I never really thought about it until recently.

We keep talking about the front passenger compartment, but I still remember that someone was part of an early private showing 2 years ago and remarked that the G12 rear compartment was somewhat chauffeur-oriented. Wouldn't that affect a potential 9-Series?

 

[Carmaker1]

This couldn't be more wrong.

Why is that wrong exactly? The E23 did not start the BMW design language, since it followed the theme established by the E12 and E24. The E32 most certainly did on the exterior, as the E30 was a bridge gap in design. The E38 was the first fully rounded BMW, even though some believe the E36 was. I partially believe the Bangle Revolution might have started with the Z8, but IDK 100% really.

The G11 may or may not be trend-setting for other BMWs on the exterior (based on insider verified PSes), but hopefully it separates itself well-enough from current BMWs and leads somewhat design-wise.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Why is that wrong exactly?

The 7 Series has started numerous design themes at BMW, and the S-Class is certainly not leading the design language at MB at the moment.

 

[Carmaker1]

The 7 Series has started numerous design themes at BMW, and the S-Class is certainly not leading the design language at MB at the moment.

I agree then, as maybe the S-Class hasn't chronologically set MB design trends since the W126, all in all. The supposed recessed grille never really debuted on the W140, but the R129 SL. To be honest, the W222 may have been due in late 2012 and was delayed. The 2nd/3rd Mercedes-Benz design approved under Gorden Wagener's tenure through 2009. That allowed for other parallel developments to precede it. For the core models (C, E, & S), it has always been the first in setting the tone though.

As for the 7er, your theory certainly does apply to the E32, E38, E65, and F01 starting exterior design trends at BMW. On the interior, only the E38 (concave interior) and E65 (blatant revolution) started new design trends. The G11 gives the impression of embracing evolution, but we'll see.

BMW though, is beginning to do the same thing that they did with the E23/E32/E38 and have 3 generations (E65/F01/G11) be more or less related design-wise. In that case, the G11 replacement may be the actual design revolution in 8 years time. That's if the board allows van Hooydonk to do so, as I'm sure he isn't just doing continual evolution for no reason. His predecessor, did the same thing from 1992 up until the E65 project in 1997. Yet he was blamed for "ruining" BMW, when it was a board directed decision to revolutionize BMW.

 

[Busty]

........ Back on topic (somewhat).... If one thinks about it, Head of BMW Brand Design Karim Habib worked for Mercedes-Benz for a full 2 years between March 2009 and February 2011. He was present when the W222 was still being designed, after it was frozen, and may have seen prototypes of it too. He returned to BMW about 1 to 1 1/2 years after likely seeing it, as BMW was undergoing the 1:3/1:4/1:5 clay design stages on the G11.

I am well aware of non-disclosure contracts and not being allowed to take intellectual property of a previous employer with you to another job. Perhaps his personal knowing of all aspects W222 design, helped ease competitive concerns for the G11 development team? If they knew what the S-Class looked like in 2011, they knew what was sufficient regarding exterior and interior design for the G11. This may be old news, but I never really thought about it until recently. ......

Confidentiality in the design process is a relative issue, in my opinion. Of course, there are strict rules and according paragraphs in the contracts but it's everyday business that designers change their employers. People outside the industry sometimes create the image of wars between brands and, accordingly, assume developers take blood oaths or so. Also, design is considered as very subjective. Rather, car design as it is done today is rather 'sciency' and bound to various rules. Most designers are very well able to quickly adapt to the new surroundings and the factual data that they have to adhere to. In the first design rounds, there are also mostly external experts (design professors etc.) involved who give their advice and have a vote in the decisions.

I share @Carmaker1's impression that the G11 is developed with the W222 (very concretely) in mind. I only know rumors about how it went design-wise but in terms of HMI-issues, driver-assistence technologies, and finish, it is (and has been) definitely the case. The W222 was carefully scrutinized at its official presentation, and repeatedly since then. Also, and quite logically, its market performance is observed closely and reacted to. In the industry, the W222 is considered a very good car but not without weaknesses that are indeed focussed on (some surprisingly in core Mercedes domains) by the competition. At least in the early cars sold, for instance, quality has been an issue (e.g. horrible fit of the doors) with noticeable customer dissatisfaction. BMW internally reacts to these little areas of weakness by emphasizing its own core values and positioning the G11 as the 'see-what-you-get and get-what-you-see' in its class (with very careful preparation of series production). The claim is that no customer will be disappointed with his or her newly acquired G11 (which to me is a matter of course).

 

[Deleted member 25]

C class is a copy paste of the s.

 

[SKY]

C class is a copy paste of the s.

Another brilliant contribution to a BMW thread.

Can anyone talk about the next G11 here please?

 

[Rainer271]

@Busty: it's everytime very nice to read your postings. Thank you.

 

[Will]

I hope this thread stays active like this, i keep clicking thinking that i will see more spy pics..

 

[SKY]

BTW, it´s been fantastic to see with pics the evolution, sometimes subtle, others not that much, of the BMW design along the past decades.

 

[Deleted member 25]

Another brilliant contribution to a BMW thread.

Can anyone talk about the next G11 here please?

I was replying to whoever said the s class don't start the trends at Mercedes.

 

[ThroughandThrough]

I hope BMW will design a new top-level model with a more vertical kidney grill, reflecting on the heritage of the automaker.

 

[klier]

Another brilliant contribution to a BMW thread.

Can anyone talk about the next G11 here please?

What comes around goes around. We have been hearing the very same thing for many years here on the BMW side of the forum.
And you know what, he is right. BMW has never copied a design as blatantly as MB is doing lately......and the sad thing is that the MB design is so-so to begin with...and now we are getting it in different sizes, exactly the same stuff.

 

[Busty]

@Busty: it's everytime very nice to read your postings. Thank you.

Thanks a lot. This thread it is good mixture of 'fanboydom' and sincere, well-informed, yet differentiated interest in a car and its history. I learn and laugh a lot in here, gain new perspectives, and that's why I really like it. So thank you guys.