Mercedes & Aston Martin talk about possible cooperation


Re: BMW in talks with Merc

no real image.. no real heritage..
nothing..
so no wonder they would want some help from the daddy of automobiles
and personally MB shouldnt share their knowledge with AM..

That's not entirely correct Kashef. Sure, Aston Matin hasn't been around as long as Mercedes-Benz, but they certainly have heritage and image. Lots in fact.

Though, as has already been said, the words "technical knowhow" and "Aston Martin" just don't fit together. Much of their vehicles up until the DB9 (and even the DB9 isn't all that advanced - though you've got to give 'em props for the aluminum chassis) were downright archaic.
 
Re: BMW in talks with Merc

I disagree.
A mid-rear engined car would be a better solution. The Cayman's has proven that.
Porsche made the 356 rear engined, not to a people carrier like its twin the
Bettle, but because that's what they had to work with in post WWII Europe (not Germany either).
And than they made the 911 because that's what Porsche fans/customers wanted most, a rear engined car.
If the 911 was supossed to be a state of the art sport car they would have chossen the mid engined path in 60s like Lotus and Ferrari, and/or used their 550 as the inspiration not their 356.
There's simply no logical way to justify putting so much weight after the rear axle on such a longwheel base car.

I strongly disagree.

The true explanation of the rear-engine is, it is right, the 356, based on the Beetle, and the wish to have 4 seats.
But this is precisely this detail that gives all its attractiveness to the car. Most clients buy it because of the look and the image, made partly by competition success.

But a lot of driver go on track and competition precisely because this rear engine gives it a specific driving characteristic.
It is very oversteering, but in the same time has a strong understeering tendancy. It has, due to the weight at the rear, unmatched traction and braking power, and can reaccelerate much sooner than other in a corner, because of that incredible traction.

And it is a real pleasure to put it hard in a corner, playing with the understeering at the entrance that you fight with braking or oversteering, and then the strong oversteer at the end of the corner...

It has a unique comportment on the road. it is special. So it is beloved by the professional drivers who put it on the tracks, giving it victories and competition success, thus increasing its appeal. Therefore all the GT3RS and GT3Cup and all that.

The Porsche 928 was better, more powerful, faster, easier... (a bit heavy though), but it is the 911 that people wanted. now the Cayman is (almost) as fast, easier, less expensive...but it is just another sportscar, It is not the 911...

The 911 is something special due to this rear-engine, it explains his success and long life.
Otherwise Porsche would have replaced it like it replaces all other Porsche models!

There are indeed arguments for the rear-engine:

-better traction (more weight on the rear wheels)
-better brakes (more weight on the real wheels, thuis more grip, thus more brake power. In the same time it can brake as hard as others at the front because the harder you brakem the more front grip you have)
-better traction to go out of the corner. You can reaccelerate sooner

But some problems too:

-strong understeer at the entry of the corner, because no weight so no grip at the front. So need to brake before the corner to "charge" the front, but risk of spinning if too much... Or you provoke oversteering just before the corner by turning the wheel too much.
-strong general oversteering tendancy. The rear is heavy, so when it begins to loose grip it does it more quickly and more brutally than other cars.

So it is harder to go fast with it, but for a driver it is also more interesting because you have to "fight" with this changing undertsteer/oversteer...
 
Re: BMW in talks with Merc

I disagree.
A mid-rear engined car would be a better solution. The Cayman's has proven that.
Porsche made the 356 rear engined, not to a people carrier like its twin the
Bettle, but because that's what they had to work with in post WWII Europe (not Germany either).
And than they made the 911 because that's what Porsche fans/customers wanted most, a rear engined car.
If the 911 was supossed to be a state of the art sport car they would have chossen the mid engined path in 60s like Lotus and Ferrari, and/or used their 550 as the inspiration not their 356.
There's simply no logical way to justify putting so much weight after the rear axle on such a longwheel base car.
OK ...you have made an excellent point -- but one could possibly argue that the Cayman and Boxster are branches of the same family tree -- essentially, variants of the 911 ethos.
 
Re: BMW in talks with Merc

That's not entirely correct Kashef. Sure, Aston Matin hasn't been around as long as Mercedes-Benz, but they certainly have heritage and image. Lots in fact.

Though, as has already been said, the words "technical knowhow" and "Aston Martin" just don't fit together. Much of their vehicles up until the DB9 (and even the DB9 isn't all that advanced - though you've got to give 'em props for the aluminum chassis) were downright archaic.

their heritage is a old one that has not been fullfilled for the last 20 years or more..they made a couple of iconic cars back in the days..and thats it..
after that every new aston has left us wanting more..
so their heritage is not relevant
their image comes from that OLD heritage..of few cars.
and the high price

said that i agree they have some image and heritage..but nothing MB can benefit from..and not near on the same level as MB..
so in this context they more or less have NOTHING,..imo ofcourse..:D
 
Re: BMW in talks with Merc

I agree with everything you've said here about the 911, but I do think Porsche is going to find themselves up against a wall sooner or later designwise. I never meant to say that I don't like or admire the 911 in the ways you've explained. It is the very definition of "evolution" as you state here. I just wonder how many times they can re-invent it.

M

One of the reasons Porsche could get away with the lazy redesigns is cause of lack of serious competition. Once a blue moon, an NSX appears/disappears, but there was never any serious consistent competition to the 911. Hopefully that will change with R8, GTR and AM V8 and others will get seriously into this segment instead of making a halo car once a blue moon and then gtfo.
 
Re: BMW in talks with Merc

One of the reasons Porsche could get away with the lazy redesigns is cause of lack of serious competition. Once a blue moon, an NSX appears/disappears, but there was never any serious consistent competition to the 911. Hopefully that will change with R8, GTR and AM V8 and others will get seriously into this segment instead of making a halo car once a blue moon and then gtfo.

I don't think so.
The redesigns can be described as "lazy" designwise, but technically the 911 has always evolved and was always (and still is) very very advanced.

The design of the 911 is destined to evolve, not to change. I don't thionk they will have troubles keeping this shape. Like the G-Class, the 911 is not aging.
 
Re: BMW in talks with Merc

I don't think so.
The redesigns can be described as "lazy" designwise, but technically the 911 has always evolved and was always (and still is) very very advanced.

The design of the 911 is destined to evolve, not to change. I don't thionk they will have troubles keeping this shape. Like the G-Class, the 911 is not aging.

I was talking bout the design. Like some one else said, evolution can only take you so far, at some point you will need to make a break. As for the G class, it is acutely anachronistic. The only reason it is selling even in the few numbers it is, is for the same reason the Hummer is - equal measures of misplaced sense of security mixed with some sever male anatomical inadequacy. All imho.
 
Maybe just say character, charm, passion and emotion...:D

(I don't speak of the H2 or H3 here; but of the G-Wagen and the 911)
 
Maybe just say character, charm, passion and emotion...:D

(I don't speak of the H2 or H3 here; but of the G-Wagen and the 911)

While I can see old school character in the G class, a soap box probably has more charm and passion - and nothing wrong in that, after all the G wagen, much like the original Hummer is a military vehicle - not meant to charm any one.:t-cheers:
 
Well for me the G-Class has an enormous charm. Enormous. I truly adore it.

It is the one and only all-terrain/suv I would love to own. The only one that I would consider, if I had the money.
For me the Geländewagen is the better all-terrain ever made. And the one with the most charm, easily.

I can understand that you don't like it that much, though.
 
Hmmm ........do you know anyone who thinks it is not pretty?

Wait .....when I was a child, my Dad thought they were ugly -- but he is not a man of great taste to be honest ;)

My dad and me. :D Maybe JC... But obviously, not many people are on our side judging the stellar sales of Porsche.

I think for the 911 it's either you like it or you don't. I think we had the same discussion about this before.;)
 

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