Vs M3 Competition vs GS-F vs C63 S

[tristatez28lt1]

Very good question, watch this space for a count of various mags comparison results.

What do test results actually matter? Every test (very obvious with the British mags) is influenced by the person who is testing. The only thing that is hard to argue (and we still do it all the time) are numbers.

If I'm honest taking out all emotions for the brands and keeping it as objective as possible, I think that when it comes to pure driving and experience BMW stays on top.

When it comes to more of a luxury, brutal high speed autobahn vehicle it is Mercedes.

But again that is just my (expert and objective) opinion. These points can rarely be sorted out. Same thing: arguing with a Tesla customer about the hidden emissions of electricity...

 

[klier]

So, has te C63 been deemed the better driver's car in most tests?

Most certainly not. Opposite in fact.

If I'm honest taking out all emotions for the brands and keeping it as objective as possible, I think that when it comes to pure driving and experience BMW stays on top.

10 times out of 10. A 100% score. Business as usual.

 

[LaArtist]

Most certainly not. Opposite in fact.



10 times out of 10. A 100% score. Business as usual.

Really?
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/c-class/96649/mercedes-amg-c-63-s-coupe-vs-bmw-m4

The BMW remains a brilliant performance car that’ll easily give the Porsche 911 a run for its (extra) money. However, compared with the C 63, at this level the price gap could be less important for buyers, and the M4 doesn’t quite offer the same rounded ability as the AMG. It’s still a scalpel-sharp car on your favourite road, but it doesn’t feel as fluid or involving to drive.

 

[bmwownage]

^i wonder what you do for a living. you love a brand with so much passion and hate the other with so much passion which is fine, but you actually spend so much time and effort.

Being a MB die-hard like you, I would imagine that 10 years ago (i don't know how old you are) you would say driving pleasure doesn't matter and comfort is what it matters most because most of the buyers at this range would care about comfort. You would also probably say handling doesn't matter but straight line speed/acceleration does because that's what normal road drivers would look for. That's exact how MB was like but technology has enabled everyone to catch up a lot. I don't doubt that BMW tries to adhere to the driver orientated philosophy because that's what they have always been about and BMW fans do not agree with any moves when BMW tries to do something against this, like FWD, turbo etc. but how about you?

 

[Rolf]

Well I know Autocar, Autoexpess, EVO and Motortrend have chosen the C63 above the M3/M4 but then some German mags have chosen M3/M4 above C63 so you can say it depends on the drivers and magazine testers which is their preference but both are supreme drivers cars and each of them have advantages in certain criteria over each other. For me personally I love both cars and to choose which one I could own will be a very hard decision to make

 

[LaArtist]

^i wonder what you do for a living. you love a brand with so much passion and hate the other with so much passion which is fine, but you actually spend so much time and effort.

Being a MB die-hard like you, I would imagine that 10 years ago (i don't know how old you are) you would say driving pleasure doesn't matter and comfort is what it matters most because most of the buyers at this range would care about comfort. You would also probably say handling doesn't matter but straight line speed/acceleration does because that's what normal road drivers would look for. That's exact how MB was like but technology has enabled everyone to catch up a lot. I don't doubt that BMW tries to adhere to the driver orientated philosophy because that's what they have always been about and BMW fans do not agree with any moves when BMW tries to do something against this, like FWD, turbo etc. but how about you?

I fly Aircrafts for a living, and im 31. You are right to me personally lap times do not matter, in the real World torque is king and also Comfort is way more conveniant than sportyness. Especially in run of the mill cars and not real sports cars. Now the funny thing is that MBs and mainly AMGs are much more involving to drive, but they also retain their Comfort its a win win how can one not like that?
The thing is that BMW has made a distinct choice to focus more on Comfort, but opposed to Mercedes this comes at a loss, the loss of the legendary driver involvment and also at loss of the sportyness. This has taken BMW from being the clear sports choice in every segment to something which not here or there. Which is kind of sad, i could respect them more back in the Days they took a clear stand. A stand which i was not interested in as i value Comfort more than sport (in run of the mill cars).

So essentially my hate is everlasting it was there back when they took a stand but then i could respect it atleast.
Its still here as they aren't best anything anymore..its just the respect for the brand that is lost.

 

[TMCCL65]

My real problem with the M3/M4 is BMW's cost cutting techniques that they do not pass along to the consumer. They essentially use a very similar turbo six throughout their line up. Bump up the power a bit and charge a premium for the M3/M4. That is to be expected. But what bothers me is that the costs have to be much much less than the 4.0 V8. Yet, the F80 is much more expensive. The C63 on the other hand is a bit of a bargain. It shares a similar engine with AMG GT. To me there is value in that, something worth paying a premium that goes beyond performance numbers.

 

[Rolf]

I fly Aircrafts for a living, and im 31. You are right to me personally lap times do not matter, in the real World torque is king and also Comfort is way more conveniant than sportyness. Especially in run of the mill cars and not real sports cars. Now the funny thing is that MBs and mainly AMGs are much more involving to drive, but they also retain their Comfort its a win win how can one not like that?
The thing is that BMW has made a distinct choice to focus more on Comfort, but opposed to Mercedes this comes at a loss, the loss of the legendary driver involvment and also at loss of the sportyness. This has taken BMW from being the clear sports choice in every segment to something which not here or there. Which is kind of sad, i could respect them more back in the Days they took a clear stand. A stand which i was not interested in as i value Comfort more than sport (in run of the mill cars).

So essentially my hate is everlasting it was there back when they took a stand but then i could respect it atleast.
Its still here as they aren't best anything anymore..its just the respect for the brand that is lost.

I agree with many of your comments about everyday driving and also with regards to BMW as a brand. I have grown up with a passion for Mercedes and BMW since I was a kid in the 1980's as in my family our cars were mostly Mercedes (W114, W123 and W116) but we also owned an E30 BMW and now I own an E90 BMW. I feel over the years the philosophy of both brands has changed a little and as a result BMW has now become closer to Mercedes in comfort and not just focused on been the "Ultimate Drivers Machine" as they were in the 70's, 80's and early 90's. I think this change started with the E46 3-series as that car had the interior quality and noise levels to match the E39 5-series and it gained hugely in ride comfort compared to the E36, BUT it became less of a drivers car and initially it had inferior handling and steering sharpness compared to the E36 and even the front drive Alfa 156 was even a sharper car to drive at the time and it became a car as comfortable and better built than the W202 C-class. The defining point came in 2000 when Mercedes introduced the W203 C-class, that car became a better handling and better riding car than the E46, the first Mercedes model to focus on young and sporty and not just comfort. Many magazine comparisons got the C-class beating the 3-series cause it was the better drivers car and BMW lost their famed Ultimate Drivers Machine crown. This made BMW wake up and then they had to rush in chassis and steering changes to the E46 and bring a FL in early 2002 to bring its halo model back on top as a drivers machine par excellence.

The newer Mercedes models have become closer to BMW ever before as a driver machine, while still having their benchmark ride comfort, while BMW have come closer to Mercedes in comfort while still keeping their benchmark handling. The big problem lately is sometimes BMW is off focus and they straddle the line off balance to lose a little driving appeal compared to rivals. As a lot of magazines have the handling entertainment as their main focus the BMW will occasionally lose comparisons against rivals as they have caught up in this department. Look at Jaguar lately with XE and XF.

I personally have a preference for excellent ride comfort and supreme noise levels as more for everyday driving as a person doesn't get much opportunity on a public road to drive a car hard in corners to test its dynamic abilities. There is too much traffic in cities and you can only do this kind of enthusiastic driving maybe out of town on a country road on a mountain pass which I don't do a lot. Ok I do enjoy pushing a car hard in a bend when I have the opportunity as I want to learn about the cars limit and how to control it, but most days I prefer comfort.

 

[Frankie G]

I fly Aircrafts for a living, and im 31. You are right to me personally lap times do not matter, in the real World torque is king and also Comfort is way more conveniant than sportyness. Especially in run of the mill cars and not real sports cars. Now the funny thing is that MBs and mainly AMGs are much more involving to drive, but they also retain their Comfort its a win win how can one not like that?
The thing is that BMW has made a distinct choice to focus more on Comfort, but opposed to Mercedes this comes at a loss, the loss of the legendary driver involvment and also at loss of the sportyness. This has taken BMW from being the clear sports choice in every segment to something which not here or there. Which is kind of sad, i could respect them more back in the Days they took a clear stand. A stand which i was not interested in as i value Comfort more than sport (in run of the mill cars).

So essentially my hate is everlasting it was there back when they took a stand but then i could respect it atleast.
Its still here as they aren't best anything anymore..its just the respect for the brand that is lost.

I'd add that if you're into driving anything close to 2 tonnes or over, then the 'torque is king' sentiment is certainly true for most. And it explains your preference for comfort over sportiness and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is a personal choice after all..

But I'd like to know where you get the idea that MB's and AMG's are more involving to drive than their counterparts from Munich? From one or two comparisons on the internet? I'd agree there are a couple of AMG's which have fantastic driver involvement but having sampled a fair few from both brands over the past decade, I can't honestly say there's been that many Benz's with greater driver involvement than the comparable BMW in it's class.

Just my two cents..

 

[LaArtist]

I'd add that if you're into driving anything close to 2 tonnes or over, then the 'torque is king' sentiment is certainly true for most. And it explains your preference for comfort over sportiness and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is a personal choice after all..

But I'd like to know where you get the idea that MB's and AMG's are more involving to drive than their counterparts from Munich? From one or two comparisons on the internet? I'd agree there are a couple of AMG's which have fantastic driver involvement but having sampled a fair few from both brands over the past decade, I can't honestly say there's been that many Benz's with greater driver involvement than the comparable BMW in it's class.

Just my two cents..

Yes you are mainly right, my impressions are indeed from tests, as i haven't sampled all recent Ms and AMGs like you have, but one thing is sure AMG today compared to a decade ago is much more involving, and in some cases even beating M. That was unthinkable a decade ago.
So from a point of progress AMG leads M by quiet a margin over the last decade.

For eg
This couldn't hold a candle to that BMW back in the days:

This one almost did it over this bmw:

And finally this one is near enough equal if not better on many accounts than this latest BMW

All im sayin is that the gap has gone from huge down to minimal.

 

[martinbo]

I feel that your appraisal of the situation is altogether correct, @LaArtist

 

[Frankie G]

Yes you are mainly right, my impressions are indeed from tests, as i haven't sampled all recent Ms and AMGs like you have, but one thing is sure AMG today compared to a decade ago is much more involving, and in some cases even beating M. That was unthinkable a decade ago.
So from a point of progress AMG leads M by quiet a margin over the last decade.

For eg
This couldn't hold a candle to that BMW back in the days:

This one almost did it over this bmw:

And finally this one is near enough equal if not better on many accounts than this latest BMW

All im sayin is that the gap has gone from huge down to minimal.

I too agree and I think even the boffins at both AMG and M would agree as well. And I also think that when AMG release the C63 Black, we may see something very special indeed..

 

[hovabongZA]

K

My real problem with the M3/M4 is BMW's cost cutting techniques that they do not pass along to the consumer. They essentially use a very similar turbo six throughout their line up. Bump up the power a bit and charge a premium for the M3/M4. That is to be expected. But what bothers me is that the costs have to be much much less than the 4.0 V8. Yet, the F80 is much more expensive. The C63 on the other hand is a bit of a bargain. It shares a similar engine with AMG GT. To me there is value in that, something worth paying a premium that goes beyond performance numbers.

I don't follow aren't MB the masters of cost cutting in this case they've used the same engine for all their cars with just different tunes from the 5.5 ,6.2 and now 4.0 biturbo this latter engine is used from the C63 to the GT's. Up until this generation BMW have always used much more bespoke engines compared to AMG.

BMW like MB could have just used Their already existing class leading extensively copied hot V engine in the M3/4 and called it a day but instead built a new twin turbo 6 engine. Yes it might be similar to the N55 but all M engines have been similar to other existing engines.

 

[hovabongZA]

All im sayin is that the gap has gone from huge down to minimal.

I'm happy that you acknowledge that there's still a gap

 

[LaArtist]

I'm happy that you acknowledge that there's still a gap

there isn't though.. its splitting hairs at this moment.

 

[TMCCL65]

K

I don't follow aren't MB the masters of cost cutting in this case they've used the same engine for all their cars with just different tunes from the 5.5 ,6.2 and now 4.0 biturbo this latter engine is used from the C63 to the GT's. Up until this generation BMW have always used much more bespoke engines compared to AMG.

BMW like MB could have just used Their already existing class leading extensively copied hot V engine in the M3/4 and called it a day but instead built a new twin turbo 6 engine. Yes it might be similar to the N55 but all M engines have been similar to other existing engines.

I see that you don't follow. The C63 is the "cheapest" model that uses the 4.0 biturbo V8. The thread is asking about advice on M3 vs C63 S. So as I said, that is a very good value proposition. Now I would agree with you if we were comparing the AMG GT to a 911 Turbo. I would have the same complaint about the AMG GT that I threw at the M3/M4.

As far as the use of the 5.5 Biturbo V8, the E63 was the "cheapest" AMG to get that engine. That was a certain value I was aware of when purchasing my E63 S. I also don't like the fact that AMG is going to use the 4.0 Biturbo in the upcoming E63. It is also why I didn't wait for it (and the fact they made the E class look very "C-ish".

I am not a brand fanatic. In the past 12 years, I have owned 3 Audis (2 S's and 1 RS), 2 MB AMGs, and 3 BMWs (2 M's). All the manufacturers are trying to cut costs. But in this instance the C63 is the beneficiary of its powertrain going "upmarket".

 

[Karabiner98k]

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