European Cars = Unreliable?

[Mr. M]

The idea for this thread came upon me when I considered all of the European cars my family owned over the years. They all had a major issue at some point of ownership despite meticulous adherence to servicing schedules and intervals.

In Singapore, it seems like I am not alone. European cars (called continentals by the locals) generally are perceived to be more expensive to upkeep, have more problems and in general are more fussy and troublesome to have. It doesn't appear to be a mere perception either - workshops generally say that continentals are not the cars to own if we want a fuss-free experience. That honour goes to the Japanese, who although have problems of their own, generally build cars that have nary a fault in their whole product life cycle. It seems like the age-old debate of Japanese cars being more reliable hasn't really become irrelevant, especially with the European method of introducing cutting-edge technology to their cars which might not have the longevity and long-term reliability that customers hope for.

I know I am a bit broad-stroke here, so here's the question - what are your experiences with European cars? Are they less reliable than comparable Japanese or Korean ones?

Just to share a bit of my experience:

2003 W220 S-Class - Airmatic suspension failure (with a monumental bill!)
2004 Phaeton - Suspension issues
2007 Quattroporte - Electronics issues (car stuck at workshop for almost two weeks)
2006 VW GTI - Frequent coil-pack failures, intermittent check engine light issues (unresolved)
2009 Touran - 1.4TSI supercharger failure (twice, in three years from new, only 50,000km done)
2010 W212 E250 - Intermittent check engine light, suspension noises straight off the factory

And what I've heard from forums:

- Frequent failures of the 7-speed DSG and S-Tronic gearboxes (mechatronic failures)

I am having very weak faith about European engineering now, but I am very curious to find out why. It doesn't seem like the European experience of these cars are quite similar. I came up with some possibilities as to why we face more issues here in Asia:

1) Climate. Being in a place with >90% humidity and 32 degrees Celsius temperatures, the cars have it tough. Then again, what happened to all that millions of kilometres of road testing?

2) Planned obsolescence. That's how car makers make money nowadays... Right?

3) Untrained/poorly trained service crew. Singapore has a predominantly Japanese dominated car market, so continental makes tend to have poorer and more expensive service... There is also a shortage of mechanics as the profession is seen as a 'dirty job' here. Unfair of course!

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Thoughts?

M

 

[Monster]

From my experience, our 7 years old W211 E350 is far more reliable than our 6 years old Subaru Liberty.

 

[MikeJ]

I don't think the issues you mentioned are in any way specific to Singapore. If my only criteria for choosing a car was reliability, I'd choose a Toyota. However, it would be interesting to know what percentage of owners have experienced problems with, say, TSI or DSG technologies.

Personally, I've been left at the side of the road twice due to mechanical failure. The first time was in the 2005 VW Polo my mother had back then (a spark plug failure that caused a short circuit or something along those lines, the dealer said they'd never seen one before, sorted quickly under warranty). The second time was in my dad's then practically brand new 2008 Subaru Outback TD which experienced a sudden clutch failure. The clutch was replaced under warranty, but my father was told that if it failed again they would not cover it. The dealer later replaced "half the engine" under warranty (don't know the specifics), apparently this was somehow connected to the clutch issue. However, most cars we've had have had only minor issues or no issues whatsoever (that'd be the Skoda Fabia my mother replaced the Polo with). Even my old Saab has been extremely reliable, the only major thing I've had done was replacing most of the front suspension (at a considerable cost, especially when the value of the car itself is taken into account) but that is the sort of thing that can happen to any car with age.

 

[Makini]

Grrrrrrrrr... dont get me started!

Euro failures I have had to deal with include multiple DSG, fuel pump, water pump, AC condensor, clutch assemblies et al. Granted the Euromobile feels far nicer to own but the japanese are streets ahead with regard to real quality as compared to perceived quality.

My Ma has a MY2001 RAV4 with 220k+ kilometers. Moving it the other day I noticed a distant clutch judder especially in reverse gear. Was getting a bit worried forseeing a clutch change until I realised that I'd never previously changed the clutch. Infact the car has never been to a Toyota dealer.The clutch has done good and if it wants to go, i'll happily change it.

What is even more special was when my Ma drove it (she no longer does) I always harped on about her bad habit of resting her foot on the clutch pedal despite Toyota thoughtfully provinding a foot rest. Despite all this, its clutch has lasted 11 years and 220k kilometers. BRAVO!

My old Jetta TDi used to munch through the things every 27k - 35k kilometers. One even only lasted a scarcely believable 21k kilomerters! And I never ride the clutch, always pop it into neutral when stationery but sad never to have seen more than 45k on a single clutch. Passat TDI replacement was no better. Expensive clutch change once per year. Plus failed turbo (warranty) & failed fuel pump (warranty).

That's all i'm saying.

 

[Makini]

And I will not be drawn into talking about the Discovery TD5 auomatic I bought for my Ma and kept for 4 years. Luckily it rolled & was written off, putting me out of my misery.

Never again!

 

[330CIZHP]

Hmmm..Maybe, on the average probablitistically speaking, they have a higher probability of failure.

However, there are many people who have not had any issues (or major issues). It has worked out fairly well for me and my 330 has been reliable. Only issue that happened was 3 years ago when fuel pump failed and have had a few sensor issues here are there abruptly going haywire. But, yeah when something goes wrong, the repair is damn expensive.

 

[mini_cooper4]

You want reliability... buy a Mazda! We were a Mazda dealer so I guess I know what I'm talking about
Euro cars are behind but it's all about the finish and quality of the materials used with euro cars and that's what I'm looking for.
* "reliable enough" is good enough for me when it comes in premium form...
PS: Is Lada asian or european or both ?

 

[Yaz]

I think most of it has to do with parts - they're very expensive. Cabin air filter... $160. All the European (all Germans) cars we've had were expensive to maintain. There's also the perception that if you pay that much money for it, things shouldn't go wrong.
I for one blame parts. You could get the same part for a Japanese/Korean car for 1/4 of the price.

 

[Merc1]

European cars are less reliable, this isn't really news. A 2003 S-Class, I'm surprised more problems didn't surface!

M

 

[mini_cooper4]

I think most of it has to do with parts - they're very expensive. Cabin air filter... $160. All the European (all Germans) cars we've had were expensive to maintain. There's also the perception that if you pay that much money for it, things shouldn't go wrong.
I for one blame parts. You could get the same part for a Japanese/Korean car for 1/4 of the price.

Korean, yes... Japanese parts... not

 

[Mr. M]

So more expensive parts, less reliability and overall a more problematic experience - and we still buy our European cars! Do they deserve to get away with it? It reminds me of Giffen goods - the higher the price, the higher the demand.

It seems like the more money we pay for the car, the more problems we're likely to expect to encounter - generally - which probably doesn't make sense to most non-enthusiasts!

Don't know about you guys, but I think my family just had enough with it - we're switching to Japanese, although the choice of 'good' Jap cars (if you factor in fun to drive too!) is much limited, amongst the modern range at least. They seem to take forever to update their technology, which might go some way to explain why their tried-and-tested stuff are so reliable.

 

[Monster]

Hey James have you considered getting a Porsche. they are generally quite reliable no?

 

[Kowalski]

I guess we are very lucky, because we didn't have any problems with our DSG equipped Passat and A3. Oh and btw, not all Japanese makers are trouble free. Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Subaru and Suzuki are the least reliable Japanese car makers.

 

[Merc1]

And Toyota, Honda and Nissan have all be recalled so many times over the last few years that I wouldn't go near one now. Not that they're all of sudden unreliable, but if they aren't perfect I certainly wouldn't put up with their s___ty design on top of that.

M

 

[MikeJ]

I guess we are very lucky, because we didn't have any problems with our DSG equipped Passat and A3.

I suppose the odds of getting a lemon are greater when buying a European car, but that does not mean that they're all going to be problematic. When you get a good one you get one of the best cars there is.

 

[Makini]

Ok, perhaps the 2006 pre-GP Touareg R5 I tool about in these days has been pretty reliable other than its propensity to blow a brake bulb every two or so weeks. I now hold a stock of 20 brake bulbs with me all the time .

Oh hold on! The gearbox now kicks like a mule on the occasional downshift when warm. They tell me it could just be due for a gearbox oil + filter change and a software update. It's in for the 50,000km service next week. I'll report on how it behaves once I pick it up.

Im really hoping its just that because we are planning to drive to Vic Falls in Zimbabwe with some Toyota Landcruiser mounted friends in a couple of months but wont be able to afford it if the tranny has to be replaced before then. *finger's crossed*

 

[Giannis]

Oh please don't get me started on how pushed and over-complex modern cars are. The TSI technology has proved to be highly unreliable when past 50 000km for instance.

Technology is going forward with a huge speed, but that's not always good. Let's take the case of fuel injection as an example:

The last few years, direct injection made it to most production cars, as it is proved to boost efficiency, in the form of more power and lower fuel consumption compared to MPI. That's achieved because a better fuel distribution is achieved with the injectors inside the cylinder, as the fuel is injected in pulses.For most people this is good news.

But I tend to see this with a slightly different point of view. In MPI engines, the fuel is injected before the cylinder, thus it passes throught the valves. This means that the additives that the fuel has, can clean the valves of the various left overs. Also, the temperature there is not as high as inside the cylinder, thus the injector itself does not need to resist to temperatures over 600C and protect itself when the mixture is ignited. This means that the injectors design is simpler. DI injectors can cost over 600€ each (3 times the price of an MPI injector) and are more prone to failure, do to their operating environment (inside the cylinder vs before the cylinder).

Also, DI engines tend to be "warmer" than their MPI predecessors. The reason is their efficiency. The closer to the 14.7:1 air-fuel ratio an engine works, the more efficient it is, but it is also hotter. A less efficient burning of gas, absorbs more heat/ generates less (same thing). This combined with an aluminum cylinder block, is not the best combination if you want to keep your car for years. Then, the efficiency of the DI means that the factory ECU map can have a more aggressive advance setting (advance: the difference of the degrees [angle] of the crank between the ignition and the top dead centre of the piston) and given the percentage of self correcting/adjusting of the map values (how much fuel to inject) of modern ECUs (around 5%, due to the narrow band λ sensors used), the car may show a check engine light very often, in case of bad quality fuel.

And the list goes on.

That's before we get to the turbocharged engines. High boost stresses many parts of the engine, but my favourite is the turbocharger itself. A high boost means high temperatures. Combine this with the fact that the turbo is lubricated with the same oil as the engine itself. In my book it's just plain impossible even for a top quality engine oil to last more than 10 000km with the required properties. Without proper lubrication, the turbocharger starts to wear of heavily after the first 50k km, which leads to oil leaking in the air intake, thus being burnt in the cylinder.

PS. There's a nice lab in the USA, called Blackstone Labs (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/) that you can send a sample of your engine oil and give you feedback on the condition of your engine and how often you should change your motor oil. A friend did send a sample and the results were shocking!

I find turbocharging to be acceptable when we are talking about relatively low pressures. A standard pressure up to 0.6 - 0.7 bar is ok, and for added performance it can be combined with a factory overboost funtion of + 0.2 bar.

***

Personally I have a 22 years old Renault that has proven to be utterly reliable. Honestly, it has 329000 km and it was never treated as it should, yet it has never stopped working! My 2005 Volvo S60 only gave me an Anti-spin issue that was fixed under warranty. Apart from that, at 130.000km, nothing has gone wrong!

 

[Yaz]

So more expensive parts, less reliability and overall a more problematic experience - and we still buy our European cars!

I've always associated German cars with crack cocaine . Once you try it, you can't quit it. Once you drive a German car, you don't wanna drive any other car.

A buddy of mine had a W220, and she was very problematic. He finally got rid of her and got an X164.

 

[Kowalski]

I read a thread about this E90 owner who was having troubles with the HPFP in his 335i and regretted buying a BMW, because he couldn't find another car that was as good to drive as his 335i.

 

[Frank Wall]

I always thought German cars were really reliable...but then again, you can always have bad luck with any car. A colleague of mine brought a brand new Golf to a conference and it broke down 20 minutes after he left. With less than 200km mileage.