Nissan GT-R Spec V Thread (Spy pics & info)

[martinbo]

Look, I hear your points Porsche Guy and I've always agreed with and appreciated your posts. Both here and back at the old place. I feel that neither you nor monster are incorrect in anyway - sure, basic hp/litre stats are nice for pub-talk bragging rights but if they don't translate to meaningful real world advantages then so what...

However, looking at how much power or torque an engine produces relative to its weight is equally one dimensional. Let me put it to the forum this way: Merc's V8 weighs 199 kg and BMW's weighs - I think - somewhere around 204 kg no? But then what does BMW's manual gearbox weigh and what does Merc's torque convertor 'box weigh? I bet my bottom dollar that the Merc's transmission is a) heavier and b) less energy transfer efficient. Surely if we're going to be so specific why don't we have a statistic for measured output at the wheels (per gear) / total vehicle weight?

I'll tell you why, because even then with all of this statistical information available it will only give us mere mortals an indication of the performance potential. Drivetrain efficiencies, traction, aerodynamics all come in to play to further influence the performance outcome.

I don't doubt for a second that the Merc engine, with its undeniably superior and exemplary power to weight ratio, is one of today's performance icons. Furthermore, let's not forget that it is significantly detuned in its application in the C63. Nonetheless, for an M3 with its appreciablly inferior outputs (on paper at least), to perform quite so closely with the more muscular C63 points to the fact that BMW must know a thing or two about engineering a complete package.

With regard to the use of the CF roof, I believe that there are two benefits, namely the reduction of roof weight and the subsequent lowering of the CofG as well as the increased torsional rigidity that the roof gives the body structure. The stiffer the bodyshell, the more effective the suspension tuning / behaviour becomes under extreme loads.

So economically, sure carbon fibre is an expensive addition and tangible benefits are difficult to quantify in the real world driving experience at best. But, I'd much rather play with a graphite tennis racquet than an aluminium one! Because it's lighter, stronger and stiffer...

Sorry if I've hijacked your very worthwhile debate.

[bmwrules]

Nissan GT-R V-Spec lap times stun observers - Autoblog

The prototype Nissan GT-R V-Spec, wearing the "Victory Specification" designation reserved for the ultra high-performance Nissan GT-R, has been caught lapping the famed Nürburgring at an incredible, if not simply unbelievable, 7:25 per lap. This, according to bystanders trackside. (For comparison, Walter Röhrl lapped the Ring in 7:28 while driving a Porsche Carrera GT in 2004.)

In contrast to the standard Nissan GT-R, that made the run around the 'Ring in 7:38, the GT-R V-Spec has a new front splitter, modified rear spoiler, and different wheels. A more extensive use of carbon fiber has reportedly reduced the weight by upwards of 330 pounds. Of course, Nissan engineers also tweaked the twin-turbo powerplant for another 70 horses... or so. Thanks for the tip, XeroK00L!

[chonkoa]

Originally Posted by martinbo

Look, I hear your points Porsche Guy and I've always agreed with and appreciated your posts. Both here and back at the old place. I feel that neither you nor monster are incorrect in anyway - sure, basic hp/litre stats are nice for pub-talk bragging rights but if they don't translate to meaningful real world advantages then so what...

Exactly what I always tell myself, what does all the metrics(hp/l, HP, torque etc) translate to- does it translate to performance increase in certain departments or all departments. If there is no improvement/advantage to reflect this metric, then there is an underlying engineering flaw that is yet to be addressed.

Originally Posted by martinbo

However, looking at how much power or torque an engine produces relative to its weight is equally one dimensional. Let me put it to the forum this way: Merc's V8 weighs 199 kg and BMW's weighs - I think - somewhere around 204 kg no? But then what does BMW's manual gearbox weigh and what does Merc's torque convertor 'box weigh? I bet my bottom dollar that the Merc's transmission is a) heavier and b) less energy transfer efficient. Surely if we're going to be so specific why don't we have a statistic for measured output at the wheels (per gear) / total vehicle weight?

This is where most people miss the point. We get so fixated with the numbers that we fail to ask why kind of transmission efficiencies are involved. How the frictional losses vary under different engine speeds. This I believe is where the engineering and science becomes important. A company that fully understands this dynamics will set the gear ratios to maximize this advantage. Sometimes we just look at the numbers without failing to understand the point of inflexion. There is a point in the torque curve where an increment in torque will reduce performance(too much traction). Isn't that what traction control is all about. Weight by itself is not bad it depends on where you are applying it directly.

Originally Posted by martinbo

I'll tell you why, because even then with all of this statistical information available it will only give us mere mortals an indication of the performance potential. Drivetrain efficiencies, traction, aerodynamics all come in to play to further influence the performance outcome.

I don't doubt for a second that the Merc engine, with its undeniably superior and exemplary power to weight ratio, is one of today's performance icons. Furthermore, let's not forget that it is significantly detuned in its application in the C63. Nonetheless, for an M3 with its appreciablly inferior outputs (on paper at least), to perform quite so closely with the more muscular C63 points to the fact that BMW must know a thing or two about engineering a complete package.

That is why I have more regard for the people at M division than the AMG division. They look at the complete package and seem to consistently deliver. It is not about HP, it is about the complete package and that entails looking at problem from multiple dimensions.

Originally Posted by martinbo

With regard to the use of the CF roof, I believe that there are two benefits, namely the reduction of roof weight and the subsequent lowering of the CofG as well as the increased torsional rigidity that the roof gives the body structure. The stiffer the bodyshell, the more effective the suspension tuning / behaviour becomes under extreme loads.

So economically, sure carbon fibre is an expensive addition and tangible benefits are difficult to quantify in the real world driving experience at best. But, I'd much rather play with a graphite tennis racquet than an aluminium one! Because it's lighter, stronger and stiffer...

Sorry if I've hijacked your very worthwhile debate.

[chonkoa]

Originally Posted by bmwrules

Nissan GT-R V-Spec lap times stun observers - Autoblog

What I like about this is what it will force Porsche and the other German manufacturers to do.
Nissan is basically rewriting the rules IMHO.

[Monster]

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

Glass in cars is double paned (I believe) and has to be able to withstand debris kicked up by other cars. Think about how thick/strong your front window has to be to withstand pebbles shot at it from cars ahead of you when you're traveling 80mph. Those little pebbles are moving pretty fast on their own and you're running straight into them on top of that. Glass isn't as strong as steel so in order to protect people from debris, the glass is going to have to be thicker than steel, and its heavier by volume to begin with. The biggest reason Ferrari and Porsche use polycarbonate windows that I can think of is that it's cheaper than carbon fiber so they can use more of it and get a greater weight reduction for the same amount of money.

Yes I agree that the windscreen offers protection to passengers as well as structural support for the car. I never said anything against that. What I said before was that the centre of gravity of something like the windscreen is not at the top of the windscreen, and because the windscreen is at an angle, the c of g is being lowered even further.

As for saying glass has a higher density than steel....normal glass density ranges from 2400 to 2800 kg/m^3, special ones reach the density of 5900kg/m^3, so it is no wear near the density of steel, which is 7700kg/m^3.

Ferrari and Porsche wants to reduce weight in every area of their lightweight specials, so they chose polycarbonate to replace the side window glass as well as the engine cover. What else can they replace glass with anyway?

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

No doubt, if you have a single piece of CF at your disposal, the roof is the best place to put it, I'm not disputing that. It's merely a waste of monetary resources. Whatever it cost BMW to buy that chunk of CF, could have probably gone towards something that would have had a larger impact upon performance.

A CF roof is probably the easiest to design and manufacture out of all the components, and because of its relative simplicity when it comes to manufacturing and assembly, the cost (both money and time) for BMW to put them on the M3 won't be as high as manufacturing other parts in CF. BMW can't really do much with the donor 3 series coupe. The base car simply isn't design for intensive use of CF components. The CF roof is part of BMW's learning process towards greater use of this lightweight and strong material in future generations of cars. Remember BMW learnt a great deal from the original M3 CSL and the M6, now the cost and time spent to produce the CF roof on the new M3 has been greatly reduced.

Look at the CF roof on the M3 as part of BMW ongoing R&D rather than some fancy gimmick.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

Great, but the density of steel (on average) is 7700 kg/m^3. For simplicities sake, assume that we use the same volume of CF, aluminum and steel for the body panels. In the real world, you would use less aluminum than steel and even less CF than that latter but let's neglect that fact because it opens things up for a discussion I just don't really care to get into. The transition from steel to aluminum is 285% decrease in weight while the shift from aluminum to carbon fiber is a 159% decrease in weight.

Where do you get those % weight reduction figures from?

I don't think you can just assume we use the same volume of CF, aluminium and steel for the body panels because the transition from one material to another and the weight reduction gained from doing so isn't as simple as comparing the density of each material.

Different materials have different material properties, eg the ability of the material to withstand stress and strain, compression, tensioni, its ability to damp vibrations, not all materials can be replaced by lighter weight alternatives. And the components or parts will have to be designed differently because of the specific properties of that matieral, and as well as manufacturing constrains of that particular material. Therefore the weight reduction won’t be as straightforward.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

The switch to carbon fiber from aluminum is big, don't get me wrong, but the conversion from steel to aluminum is greater and since F430s and Gallardos are completely aluminum (chassis and body panels), the switch to carbon fiber is not worth the added cost. Global demand from CF has jumper drastically in the last few (the new generation of commercial airliners are to thank for that) and the price has risen as a result, which makes the CF on the M3 even more stupid.

Until the day when we can manufacture and assemble CF components efficiently, the switch from aluminium to carbon fibre will be expensive. But you have to think more than just weight reduction benefits. CF components, especially used as crash structures can absorb a significant larger amount of energy than aluminium or steel, not to mention CF structures are a lot stiffer, which are now used as structural bracing in cars. Like I have said before, if you want to achieve the same stiffness of a CF component while using aluminium, the weight of the aluminium component will be a lot greater if the same design is used because the thickness of the Al component will be increased.

The CF on the M3 is all part of BMW's R&D, if you think the CF on the M3 is stupid, the ones on the Audi R8 are even worse. Audi offers CF engine bay trim, as well as CF side blades, for absolutely no purpose at all.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

I remembered discussing acceleration during physics in high school and did a quick search online. And I quote:
"Any change in the velocity of an object results in an acceleration: increasing speed (what people usually mean when they say acceleration), decreasing speed (also called deceleration or retardation), or changing direction. Yes, that's right, a change in the direction of motion results in an acceleration even if the speed didn't change."

Yes that is true.

I did say the weight of the seat is more for improving straight line acceleration rather than for outright cornering ability, and Warot had correted me on that. I have said before because the seats are placed low inside the car, the weight reduction from that area will have less effect than having a lighter roof.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

True, but you've quoted me out of context. I was talking about the aluminum hood in reference to the big fat V8 that sits under that aluminum hood. I'm thrilled that BMW has aluminum body panels but it's just there to help with weight distribution because of that elephant of a motor sitting up front

Ok, no problem.

At least the elephant is packed mostly behind the front wheels. Weight is important, but it isn't the only thing, the location of the weight is important as well. The V8 is pretty much behind the front wheels in the M3.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

But they had enough cash to go for the CF roof? That doesn't make much sense. Typically, high performance cars are the most profitable cars in a manufacturers lineup. I'm not sure about the M3 and BMW but the 911 Turbo gives Porsche the highest profit margin out of any of their cars, but I'm sure that the new GT2 at roughly 200k easily brings in a much bigger profit. You're paying an addition 70K over a Turbo to get essentially the same car without its AWD system. Porsche is pretty smart!

As i have mentioned before CF roof is part of their R&D towards future usage in more common and cheaper cars. Porsche is on an entire different level. The customers don't care about the price and Porsche knew it. Same with Ferrari and Lambo.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

You're missing my point entirely, I don't care about KW/liter! A higher KW/liter doesn't make my car perform any better than a car with a lower KW/liter and the same amount of power. It only matters if cars have a displacement cap. I care about KW/lb of engine and the M3 is just ugly in that statistical department. This whole discussion is about saving weight.

Ok, but engineers do use Kw/liter to compare engine efficiency. And you did say

People seriously need to get that fact into their heads. How about we measure power output in KW/liter? The M3 now makes 78kw/liter. BMW loves to talk about HP/liter but why don't we talk about something that actually affects performance.

so I explained why BMW talk about HP/liter. The weight of the engine is important but you need the entire package, not just the engine, as martinbo has said.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

Where have you been? That's the direction all cars are going. Another quote:

"[BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer] points to the twin-turbocharged inline-six in the 135i, 335i and 535i as a good indication of what the future might hold, particularly in the case of the M-badged variants that would make more use of forced induction rather than upgraded displacement and higher cylinder counts (not that they could get much higher). We can only dream, but with emissions standards increasing across the globe, it's the next logical evolution of the performance breed."

Source:BMW considering cutting the cylinder count on M-models? - Autoblog.

Well.. as Nobert said, with emission standards increasing across the globe it is the next logical evolution. He didn't mention specifically about weight reduction, but I guess that is in his mind as well. It is true that you can use smaller, thus lighter engines to gain the same power and better torque figures than NA engines, but you will have to remember some of the weight reduction is offset by the turbo, intercooler and additional piping required.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

I don't care how they do it. The simple fact remains that the other engines produce more HP/lb and more Torque/lb. We are talking about weight reduction, not engine complexity. I'm not doubting that the M3s engine has some insane tech behind it, Double Vanos and all that goodness, but at what expense? .

As far as I know the M3 sedan out handles the C63 and the BMW is about 150kg lighter as well. So it is the entire package, not just the engine.

Originally Posted by Porsche Guy

Good to know. So why is M3's 4 liter V8 heavier than AMG's 6.2 V8? High revving engines are typically heavier than lower revving engines. F1 cars don't count. I can't find it online but I remember reading about how the S2000s inline 4 block was really heavy because it had to rev so high. Sorry I can't find the link though.

I look forward to your reply. I'm sorry about the really long post.

Well I don't know why the M3's engine is heavier than the 6.2 V8, are they both dry engine weight figures? are they just the weight of the engine without anything else attached to the engine? The M3 also has 8 individual throttle butterfly while the AMG has 2. Not sure how much difference that will make.

Long post is good, it gets the mind moving.

[Monster]

Originally Posted by martinbo

Sorry if I've hijacked your very worthwhile debate.

Its all good, the more people in the discussion the better. I am heading off for some sleep before I read your entire post.

[martinbo]

Well I'm just dishing out thanks to all those who care enough about the topic to discuss it at length and with passion.

Makes a refreshing change from "that car sucks" and "those guys at fast car mag don't know how to drive"...

...and lest we not forget about the topic of this thread; God bless those folks at Nissan who had a hand in the creation of the utterly fantastic bar-raising and all-round great for performance motoring, Nissan GT-R. Bring on the V-Spec. Bring on a sub 7:30 Nordschleife time. Because that's called progress, which, is the best catalyst for forcing the competition to respond!

[warot]

Originally Posted by martinbo

Well I'm just dishing out thanks to all those who care enough about the topic to discuss it at length and with passion.

Makes a refreshing change from "that car sucks" and "those guys at fast car mag don't know how to drive"...

...and lest we not forget about the topic of this thread; God bless those folks at Nissan who had a hand in the creation of the utterly fantastic bar-raising and all-round great for performance motoring, Nissan GT-R. Bring on the V-Spec. Bring on a sub 7:30 Nordschleife time. Because that's called progress, which, is the best catalyst for forcing the competition to respond!

It's definitely great to see threads like this. It's refreshing to have a technical discussion rather than some threads that don't bring anything to the table (that I've seen lately).

As for the GT-R, there's absolutely no doubt that this car has changed the industry. Porsche all of a sudden do not have an answer to this car and it costs much less. It makes the M3's pricetag seem unjustified even. However, there were rumors going around that the GT-R that set the previous laptime at the Ring was not a final product (i.e more power than production version). Do you guys think this could be the same?

As for the technical discussion, I'd like to add this. I'm sure it's been mentioned here that CF not only reduces weight but also increases rigidity. It definitely makes sense to use CF on the roof as that's the highest point of the car obviously. I'd be curious to know how BMW builds their CF roof. Now I'm not expert when it comes to CF manufacturing, but how automated is this process.

I am part of the Virginia Tech mini baja SAE team which is my senior design project. We build a small 1 seater off road car with a 10hp engine. This year, we decided to incorporate CF into last years car and the new one (we are running 2 cars at the competition this year). Obviously, it doesn't look too great (it's a bunch of college guys with no experience with CF) but there is no denying that sucker is strong. Not only is the panel extremely rigid, but it also helps the frame being much more solid as well. While it is expensive for us, there's no doubt that if a bunch of college students can buy and manufacture CF body panels, BMW can do it with even less problems.

So my point is... it's probably not as expensive and complicated as most people think

[Monster]

Originally Posted by martinbo

Discussions on engine vibration frequencies and harmonics are very complex. So I'll refrain from commenting on whether a 4.0 L V8 has less vibration than a 6.2 L V8. Of course, logically it stands to reason; the bigger the cylinder capacity the bigger and heavier the reciprocating components need to be in order to cope with the combustive and inertial forces at play.

There are about 2 massively long equations and 8 massively long sub equations for engine vibration and balancing, not very fun.

Originally Posted by martinbo

Even a Pagani Zonda with 7.3 litres of AMG V12 is closer to the optimum than say a familiar 6.208 L V8. Very importantly, when it comes to high revving engines and risk of engine destruction it's not only how an engine behaves under load i.e. full-throttle acceleration but also when it's unloaded (throttle-lift) at very high rpm. Bigger pistons, con-rods, bearings and gudgeon pins carry more inertia and when the throttle is closed these components have much less resistance to keep them in check on the way up to top-dead centre.

You made a very good point about the engine running in unloaded condition. Our entire subject was spent on studying engine when it is loaded, and nothing about when the engine is unloaded. I am guessing the forces in the piston, con-rods, bearings and other parts in the unloaded condition will be less than when the engine is in loaded condition.

[Monster]

Originally Posted by warot

I am part of the Virginia Tech mini baja SAE team which is my senior design project. We build a small 1 seater off road car with a 10hp engine. This year, we decided to incorporate CF into last years car and the new one (we are running 2 cars at the competition this year). Obviously, it doesn't look too great (it's a bunch of college guys with no experience with CF) but there is no denying that sucker is strong. Not only is the panel extremely rigid, but it also helps the frame being much more solid as well. While it is expensive for us, there's no doubt that if a bunch of college students can buy and manufacture CF body panels, BMW can do it with even less problems.

So my point is... it's probably not as expensive and complicated as most people think

I left my uni's SAE team, they are just so dam lazy. Every other competitors are running turbo engines, we are still stuck with the N.A engine cause nobody wants to do any work.

I think the C.F stuff is pretty expensive, my friend had a roll of them which cost him $4000 AUD, I think it is a 2m by 2m square C.F sheet? The process is just really really time consuming. If a bunch of uni students can build a C.F body for their solar car, proper professionals will do it with no problem.

[siko]

Nissan GT-R Spec V Details Spilled

The flood gates have been cracked open by French owned publication, Road&Track, on the Nissan GT-R Spec V. Already a legend before it has even hits the streets, we've seen the Skyline successor earn itself a place amongst the Nurburgring elite in plain GT-R guise. Now, Nissan is preparing an even more extreme lightweight version known as the GT-R Spec V. Altogether, the Spec V loses 200 lbs (90 kg) and gains 40hp.

Brace yourself: 520 hp at 6500 rpm, 440 lb.-ft. (596 Nm) of torque all the way from 3200 to 5200 rpm, 3615 lbs. (1640 kg), arrives early 2009, 2-seater, cost $130,000 USD, and reportedly laps the Ring faster than 7m 30 sec. - a dummy spec given the GT-R already does it in 7:29. Therefore, its a safe bet that the Spec V will crush the Corvette ZR-1 at 7 min 26 sec, despite the price almost doubling.

According to the other French owned magazine, Car & Driver, the GT-R Spec V will be unveiled at the Paris Motor Show in October with sales to commence as soon as December for the Japanese market.

[Source: Road&Track via Autoblog.com]

[Merc1]

520hp on paper, so it will really be making about 580-600hp in reality.

M

[Merc1]

A reliable tip-off on the Nissan GT-R Spec-V specifications has been received. Before getting into that, a strong wind of suspicion says Nissan will not release any data captured from testing at the fabled Nurburgring anymore. Eyebrows of wonder all around? Suffice to say at the Sendai Highland Raceway, where the Nismo and Spec-V GT-Rs are tested, the Spec-V was a full two seconds faster than the standard car.

The engine's output has been upped to 485ps. That will work extremely well with an overboost function which is used for a more effective midrange boost when overtaking.

A number of carbon fiber features can be found inside the Spec-V, such as front seats, a rear shelf that replaces rear seats (a casualty of weight-saving), mirror switch surround as well as MFD surround. Not unexpectedly this lightweight material posts itself quite nicely on the exterior where treatment is metted out on the front grille, rear wing, ducts on the front lip spoiler and brakes are also carbon fiber. It runs on 20-inch forged aluminium wheels with Dunlop tyres as a no-cost option.

GT-R Spec-V has a new colour in Ultimate Black Pearl, said to be a purplish black, to add to Brilliant White, Red, Dark Metal Grey and Black. A base price of ¥15,750,000 ($165K, €128K) should be in order when the car goes on sale 8th January 2009.


Nissan GT-R Spec-V Confirmed Specifications - worldcarfans


M

[Tarek]

That car is gonna humiliate the best from Germany and Italy

Spec-V the new nightmare..

[Just_me]

So if I get this right, the car is only getting another 5 extra horsepower and lower weight. By how much, 100 kg?

[Tarek]

^Yeah the power boost is minor kinda like what Ferrari did with Scuderia and F430,but i guess the difference is gonna be really pronounced since now all the eyes are on Nissan

[martinbo]

Originally Posted by Just_me

So if I get this right, the car is only getting another 5 extra horsepower and lower weight. By how much, 100 kg?

The "brochure" says 520 ps and 600 Nm for a car that weighs 1640kg. That'll make for an improvement methinks...