German Car Forum

People wants a car that is very far from a sportscar from a maker of sportscars.

We have to wait for the facelift of the E92. Maybe they present the E92 M3 CSL with the facelift of the coupé, like they did with the E46 M3 CSL So, that's next year 2010. It would be a supercar alright; E92 1300 kg max, 500 Nm, 460 hp

That's the old BMW brand, the new BMW brand is losing its edge and has grown less focused (soft) in my view. I also think that the propagation of XAV and crossover models, like the 5er GT, further dilute the "Ultimate Driving Machine" brand.

As time goes by, as you point out above, customer needs and expectations change. Their perceptions and preferences also change over time so lets not get overly complacent and lose all of our humility at BMW.

Audi has the R8, Mercedes-Benz has the McLaren SLR and soon the new SLS, while Lexus is working on its own V10-powered LF-A supercar - so where exactly does this leave BMW in the halo-car department?



Sure, BMW has the M3 and the M5/M6, but in terms of pure sports cars it can hardly match the offerings from its competitors, and while some time ago there was talk of reviving the 8-Series or even building a new environmentally-friendly supercar nothing solid has come of it, which is why designer Idries Noah decided to give BMW a nudge in the right direction with his depiction of what the company’s rivals to the likes of the R8 and SLR should look like. Noah’s work has appeared on MotorAuthority before, with his Project Fireblade design study, as well as his Ferrari F250 Concept, and like those two designs the new ‘BMW M Concept’ is visually dramatic and stays true to many of the BMW’s brand essence. According to Noah, the recipe for the car was simple - "aggressive, sleek, agile". He retained BMW's trademark kidney grille, but the inspiration for the rest of the design came from nature, especially "water and the way it flows and ripples".


- Idries Noah envisages BMW?s rival for the Audi R8 with new M Concept - [Idries Noah BMW M Concept] - MotorAuthority - Car news, reviews, spy shots

Cool

So what does this luxury/GT roadster do better than say 599? A better ride? I doubt it going by the recent AMG trend and the fact that 599 has the magnetic ride? So what does it really do better? And I am only being half rhetorical, cause I frankly don't know.

And anyway the whole argument started with Hoh claiming how these 600+ HP cars are the 'real sports cars'. And like you said they are they are not.

May be, I never said other wise. Their past efforts at a supercar was definitely a failure and may be that is why they are not making another one. It is MB fan boys that get all riled up about a BMW supercar, most of us would be happy just seeing a CSL.

Well for one I get to put the top down, and a Mercedes is going to far easier to live with than a Ferrari. There are no rough edges on a Mercedes compared to a Ferrari. Comfort, Refinement and reliability over the Ferrari in spades. Not that that Ferrari isn't any of those things, but a Benz on average will do those things much better. Other than the going around the track faster, what does the Ferrari do better is the question.

Nothing Mercedes/AMG has made have been a true sports cars. GT cars, sporty GT cars yes, but an all out, pure sports car no. Only the SLR was close. Nothing since the original SL IMO. Will the SLS change that, we'll see.


M

I don't think you can put the top down on SL65 BS. As for comfort, like I said, I bet 599 with magnetic suspension has a as good ride if not better. And it is just not the track, if the DR comparison between 599, GT2 and SL65BS is to go by, the other two was also faster in the real world roads, cause the BS couldn't put it's power down effectively.

Oh I was thinking the regular SL65 AMG. We'll I'd say that the DR comparision isn't the final word because on a real expressway here my money would be on the SL, not the high strung exotics for getting from point a to be faster. Ain't no Porsche GT series 911 gonna ride better either. The Ferrari I don't know either. Most people's reality isn't back roads with hairpins. Furthermore this goes back to what I said before, you're comparing 2 purpose built sports cars with a highly-modified luxury/sports/GT roadster that has been put into the role of something else. For such a car the SL65 BS does fine IMO compared to 2 titans of the sports car market. I never said it was a sports car. Thats an argument for you and HoH.


M

For all those clamouring for a BMW supercar, I just don't get it. You can cite their sporty image but BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine" moniker is based on the fact that their ordinary cars are pleasing to drive and that comes from the feel of their steering, their ride and handling and the characteristics of their engines. This has nothing to do with mid-engined, million horsepower exotica, or even naturally aspirated I6 engines and is better accentuated by making extreme versions of normal cars, like M-models and CSL models and maintaining the feel of the regular cars whilst technology progresses. If they can make a turbo-charged V6 feel like what we expect of an M engine then what is the problem? The E30 M3 was an I4, and later M cars use V8 and V10 engines. Does that make them any less than the E36 and E46 M3s?

All of BMW's high end sports/super cars have been failures. Their current and past image is based on the points I made above, not supercars. There was the M1, which had a complicated gestation that resulted in a then unloved car that did not even sell enough to fulfill it's reason for existing (homologation for racing). The fact that some say it was ahead of it's time and was the first in the breed of modern, liveable supercars is irrelevant: it failed to sell at the time.

Then there was the 8-series, that again, failed in the market and because of this the M8 was cancelled. Fast forward to the late nineties and we have the Z8, which was more of a GT, and less of a supercar and again failed to set sales charts alight. Now, given the history involved, and the current climate, if you were a BMW board member, would you really choose to invest in such a costly and potentially dangerous project? Some of you might say it is the boring and safe approach, but it is the pragmatic one. Given that BMW have never needed to build such a car to create the sporty image, why would they need to, in order to maintain it?

My final point is to those saying Nordschleife times are irrelevant is, how do cars achieve those times? Through lightness, well sorted suspensions and chassis and yes, power. Now if a car can take the caroussel stably and at high speed, do you not think this translates to normal everyday country road driving? Do you not think those same characteristics give a driver confidence and enjoyment on the road as well? It is no surprise that the fastest N-ring cars are also considered to be the most "fun" to drive.

^^And the cars that post times a second or two behind the best aren't crap to drive either.


M

Of course. I'm not saying they are crap: I generally like the way Mercedes cars drive, even if I might prefer the equivalent Audi or BMW, but there is a sliding scale and it is not black or white, some cars are more fun and some less so. Now, personal taste does come into this as well, so some people prefer certain driving characteristics. No one can say that a big, turbocharged, slug of torque is better than a high-pitched scream to a stratospheric red line or vice versa, it is an individual driver's preference.

Bingo!


M

Exactly. Everything around the engine is far more important. Put a good diesel in a CSL chassis and I would still prefer it over a S2000 engine in a Prius.

All very valid points.

However, while I agree BMW did made its image through the normal cars... it was in a time where BMWs had no competition at all in the area of driving pleasure/everyday sportivity, only from Alfa maybe. There was an enormous difference between average cars, Mercedes cars, and BMW cars.

Now, an Infinity is said sportier than a 3er, the steering feel of several recent Mercedes has been declared equivalent or even superior to the one in BMWs, the Z4 is now a cruiser, BMW seems obsessed with releasing as many heavy people-movers and SUVs as they can, and even M does SUVs instead of roadsters.

Not very inspiring. I don't see how they intend to maintain their image like that. The 3er and 5er may be sporty and fun to drive...they are no longer the only ones in that case. That is the difference.

Well, even BMW will eventually understand that you can't build a sporty image without sportscars. Not if everything that is released only harvest from the sporty image and there are no models that sow...

Exactly. You can't live eternally on your past glory, it starts to fade if it's not renewed and reinvented.

But as we have been told over and over again. BMW does not need to do that. They have supreme sportiness in everything they do...

Edit: Just to make one thing clear. I realize that BMW does not have supreme sportiness in everything they do. That is just marketing. What they do have, is a few models that still are at the very top of their game, like the M3, which is a classic sportscar, but there is not that much more. The Z4 took a big step away from the definition of a sportscar.

I think the next 5-series will be very determining in terms of the direction of BMW. If BMW have decided to make the fiver as they should and could, on account of the 5 GT taking care of those comfort junkies... If BMW decides that it is now possible to build a 5-series for those who love to drive, I think we have a breakthrough. How? Well, if BMW builds all of these severely unsporty models, the X, Y, GT etc., etc., then the real models could be built like they should.

The people who wants a BMW badge only for the badge and not for what it stands for is happy. People who likes driving is happy. Everyone is happy.

LMAO...BTW has the SL65AMG/CLK BS been tested against any of the M-cars?

Not to mention people keep claiming that BMW is so much better on the track. Well how much time does some one spend on the track vs. "real road"?


On another note, we should ask ourselves what could a super sports car actually do for BMW? As much as I like the 5GT, I really don't see it improving the image of being "The Ultimate Driving Machine". People are already regarding it as BMW's "R-class".

The track time achieved is by no means determining of a cars greatness when it comes to the most important aspect of a car; the joy the driver gets from driving the darned thing.

Take the cute example of the Lotus Exige. It is a small car, as it should be. It is light, as it has to be. It manages the Ring in 8.32... a couple of second slower than an XKR. Funny thing is, this car manages to be superbly fun to drive, extraordinary connected and doing this all awhile prolonging the enjoyment for the driver by being severely underpowered. Hence, you get a slightly longer drive of your life, as opposed to the ride of... well, it is a ride and not a drive so, to be honest, it does not count.

Let's motor!