German Car Forum

Originally Posted by bum-man

I disagree with that. We own a Merc model that is arguably from its worst era (late 90's) and it has yet to see any unscheduled visits to a mechanic, where as our newer BMW is no stranger with the visits. So Mercedes rivals aren't without their issues either, it's just they were never expected to have excellent reliability in the first place, were as Mercedes has (still has) that expectation. They built their reputation on that.
Unfortunately, over the last decade the 'build the best' mindset seemed to disappear which is now just recently leaving a sour taste for people who enjoyed the mark. Their heritage was building cars that last. Unfortunately, that's not quite the case for Mercedes today. But I must reiterate that reliability is something that all German brands have suffered from these days, bar Porsche. So I can't agree with you that Mercedes is the only problem child from Germany in that aspect; and since they don’t quite hold the same values they did in the past it’s very easy for them to be criticized.

I do hope their worst times are behind them now and that the new S-class / M-class are testaments for what's to come.

Originally Posted by Merc1

Very accurate post here, all true. It just fascinates me when people mention Audi and reliability in the same breath. Audi is the poster child for the difference between build quality vs reliability. Only in like the last year or so have they made any progress with the latter. Mercedes was in the top 5 in initial quality in the last round of U.S. surveys by JD Powers, way ahead of Audi.

M

Originally Posted by Merc1

No. The automatics in AMGs are some of the best, if not the best automatic trannies going. The complaint was about AMG cars having an automatic, not that their automatics themselves were "horrid". Big, big difference.

M

Originally Posted by Roberto

As far as your comments about "Korean looking tail lights" go - I'm not sure what you mean exactly - obviously it was intended to be an insult, but in what way, I'm not exactly sure.

Originally Posted by AMG-UNIT

cawimmer430: I totally agree and very well said , now that's a real MB fanatic with truth .

Originally Posted by warot

Yea, but the car looks like it's competing against the E46 and B5 A4... the car doesn't stand much chance of competing against BMW and Audi I think because the facelift just isn't enough.

As for the A class, although I've never driven it, I wouldn't classify it as sporty... the A is just too tall, too bubbly, FWD and expensive. That's just what I think.

Originally Posted by Mr. Mercedes

Hey Wimmer thanks for the response. No problem.

A-Class: I stand by what I have said. I have in fact driven the A and it’s got nothing on the Golf or Mazda 3, let alone the 1-series, apart from practicality. Its ride and handling has not reached an optimum balance. The cars steering was very light, the brakes were slightly spongy and not at all confidence inspiring, as you would expect the brakes on an MB to be, and the vehicle hopped, skipped and thumped over bumps. Maybe the suspension set up works great in Europe, but on our roads down here it is less than ideal. This is a big deal since in the past MB’s received consistent praise for the way they handled our local conditions. It simply does not set class benchmarks the way and MB should. The A-Class isn't a Golf, Mazda 3 or 1-Series challenger. The A-Class competes against the VW Touran from the brands you mentioned above. BMW and Mazda have nothing here to offer. The B-Class competes with the Mazda 3 I would think. The A-Classes I have driven all had sharp steering and a sporty suspension that still provided decent comfort but moreover, a sporty ride. What you are describing sounds like the B-Class to me. I didn't like the B-Class at all, but the A-Class, I can only report positive experiences with it.

C-Class: Your right, I recently drove a facelifted C and the driving experience is vastly improved. That said I still feel the new 3 is still notably better to drive. Also, the 200k engine showed some characteristics I would not at all expect in a car of this price. On take off their was resonance and slight vibration. I find this completely unacceptable in a car costing AUS $70000-00. Also the facelift still did not life the interior to where it should be, right next to Audi. The C-Class was never meant to be a 3-series killer. BMW and Benz customers expect different things. Your typical C-Class customer wants a blend between sport and comfort, which the new C-Class satisfy's without problems. The interior is newly improved and materials feel premium, but you're right, it's not class-leading and the Audi A4 IMO has the best interior in this class, even better than the overrated Lexus IS interior. Again, I only have positive news to report with the C180K and C200K's I've driven. I suppose you may have driven an "older" C200K engine without MB's TWINPULSE system, which balances out the inherent 4-cylinder instability. It works pretty well on the new 1.8-l 4-cylinders, since they have a 6-cylinder feel and refinement to them. I've driven the C230K Sportcoupe and that engine was just awful. Unrefined, though powerful, but the vibrations were horrible.

E-Class: Quality on our E was still very much a problem. Rattling headrests, creaking ashtrays and seat cushions, foul smelling air-conditioning. These are very much quality and not reliability concerns I would think. No doubt the E’s coming out of the factory now would be completely different. But still our E ownership experience has added to my frustration with MB. We have a 2002 E320 in Germany, one of the first ones delivered. It's been 100% reliable and there are no shakes or rattles at all. Sorry to hear about your E-Class though. What model and what year is the E-Class you have? W210?

B-class: Same problems with the A on our local roads, and rather pointless really. There’s only a $2000-00 price difference between the B and A here. The European A-Class has sharper steering than what you guys in AUS get I would assume. However, the B-Class was pretty dull to drive overall compared to the A-Class, which was fun. I don't like the B-Class much either, though it looks pretty nice.

M-Class: It’s widely acknowledged, even MB, that less than 5% of buyers take these vehicles offroad. On road dynamics, where the X5 excels, are far more important in this SUV class of vehicle. But even in terms on interior design and quality, the X5 is still very much competitive with the new M. The new M-Class has pretty good onroad dynamics. I live out in the Bavarian countryside where we have some really tight twisty's etc. and the M-Classes I drove performed confidant on these roads. The M-Class is no twisy's eater, but it didn't feel nervous or unsafe unlike the last W163 M-Class, which was horrible to drive. Even though not many people will take their M-Class offroad, the ML has the added advantage of being very capable offroad and good onroad. Most people I am sure would be more than satisfied with the current W164 M-Class handling.

S-class: This car really has me confused. It’s a love hate relationship at the moment. Sometimes it looks great, others not so. The driving experience is nothing short of stunning though!The driving experience is superb, I agree. Don't like the rear aspect and the BMW rip-off interior, although the materials are first rate.

Originally Posted by Roberto

LOL - thanks for that GTA7.5, I don't know why I've never noticed before just how much the Phantom looks like an American delivery van - gosh....the likeness is uncanny ..........whatever.



As far as your comments about "Korean looking tail lights" go - I'm not sure what you mean exactly - obviously it was intended to be an insult, but in what way, I'm not exactly sure.

Originally Posted by cawimmer430

The C-Class won't touch the 3-series on the track, but for everyday driving, both cars are pretty equally matched dynamically.

Originally Posted by klier

It isn't?
Funny how people bend the truth so that is seems that BMW is the one who is wrong because they have no proper A/B class competition.
LOL! A-class is direct competition with A3 and 1er, and it is doing a horrible job at that.

Sorry, but that just made me giggle. Mercedes should have never made the baby Benz the way it is.

Originally Posted by GTA7.5

Without the chrome grill it would look like the ups deilvery truck imo.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70...nslr/10pic.jpg

Originally Posted by cawimmer430

So now I am being accused of "bending the truth"!?

Originally Posted by Mr. Mercedes

While it was in no way horrible, it wasn’t as refined as I would have expected in a car of this price. It does offer a more comfortable ride than the 3 though.

Originally Posted by Imhotep Evil

Mr. Mercedes, are you saying the driving wasn't as rafined/good like the 3er, or
just about every other car ?!
Something I don't understand is this, if the Merc. is a good handling car and has better confort, whay else do you need ?!
I'm starting to belive that some people wood like a MB with the traditional qualities/atributes + BMW's "ultimate machine" abilities.
If a Merc. doesn't drive as bimmer, than no problem, a merc is a merc, a bimmer is a bimmer.

Originally Posted by Mr. Mercedes

Hello again Wimmer.

Down here, the A is very much a competitor with the premium Mazda 3’s and Golf’s. MB’s pricing and marketing down here has dictates this. Again, our road conditions are likely to be very different to yours (i.e we have crap roads in comparison ) so maybe that’s where the Achilles heal of the A is, in its inability to cope with these rougher conditions.

I'm not saying the A is a terrible handler, but when a Mazda 3 and golf are both notably superior, thats a problem. It looks like Mercedes gives Australian MB's the same treatment as US-spec MB's: they're SOFTENED UP. Vaguer steering and a boatier suspension are the main changes. US-spec MB's get different final drive ratios designed to boost 0-60 times. I can only speak for Europe and please don't think that I am lying, but the A-Class over here, although not intended to be sporty, feels like a "little sports compact". The steering is incredibly direct and responsive and the drive is enjoyable and solid. I've driven a bunch of A-Classes and they all feel like this.

I think your right about the A not being a 1-er competitor, well at least MB never intended it to be. I think the B is seen more as its competitor down here, and I still think the B is utterly pointless and should have been something like the 1-er, albeit with MB’s traditional emphasis on comfort. The problem with the B-Class is that it is still FWD and unlike the Euro A-Class, doesn't feel sporty at all. In my experience, the B-Class has vague handling and a really soft suspension. You couldn't really trash this car because it didn't inspire confidence. In that sense, the A-Class is a better "1-series competitor", but it's still not a 1-series competitor in reality. Neither is the B-Class IMHO.

The C I drove was a brand new C200K and had barely 200km on the car. Maybe this had something to do with the engines character. While it was in no way horrible, it wasn’t as refined as I would have expected in a car of this price. It does offer a more comfortable ride than the 3 though. Could be that the engine wasn't run-it yet. The C-Classes I drove all had over 2,000-3,000 km on the odometer, hence the engine was possible run-in already. Generally, the C180K and C200K models use the same supercharged 1.8-l engine with different settings to give different outputs.

We have a 2003 w211 E320 Elegance with airmatic. When there’s no problems, the car is a joy to drive. But we have experienced several niggling quality issues over the last 3 years that have tested our patience. I suspect a lot of it may not have to do with the actual car, but the incompetence/arrogance of the MB mechanics. That the warranty is running out shortly has me very worried. MB are no longer offering extended warranties here. I wonder why? That really sucks. Sorry to hear about that. I've read that MB mechanics tend to be "horrible" at times, arrogant etc. just like you said. Also, it could be the car itself. Our 2002 E320 has been 100% reliable from day one, but while working at the MB dealer, I saw a guy who brought in his FULLY-LOADED E220 CDI every week because of some electronic issues. The mechanic told me that if it were up to him, he would replace this one part of COMAND and the problem would go away. Unfortunately, he was under direct orders from the dealership management to install another part - which in future would ensure that the system would remain unreliable. So in other words, it might be the dealership management telling their mechanics to do this, while not having a clue what's going on.

I like the new M very very much, but something is telling me it hasn’t lifted the bar high enough for the new X5. My brother is very keen on replacing our E with a new M but there is no way this is going to happen before the new V8 is slotted in and until we have an idea what the X5 is going to turn out like. Also, the Audi Q7 may have a shot depending on how it looks in the metal. I don't think the new M-Class tries to be an X5 competitor. It never was designed to be a "sports SUV". It's sporty and drives relatively sporty, but it's no X5 challenger on the road IMO. Where the M-Class shines over the X5 is comfort and offroad ability. You've probably heard that MB raised the M-Class bar at offroading. This might surprise you, but I've read in the "W164 Mercedes M-Class Salesmans Guide" ("top secret" stuff which a salesman at MB let me read...) that there are quite a few M-Class owners who take their M-Class offroad. The old W163 wasn't bad offroad, certainly better than the X5, but the new M-Class is shall we say more competitive onroad, but clearly better offroad.