German Car Forum

coolraoul · 03-26-2008, 09:11 AM

Yes, Murat Günat is very talented, he designed the first SLK amongst others. I wanted him to take the lead of Mercedes design.

Olivier Boulay, I don't like at all (although he is French). He was in charge at Mitsu and designed the Grandis (not bad), the new Mitsu "front"...And is also responsible for the design of the...Maybach!!

Mauer was at smart and did the Roadster, then left briefly to Saab and finally arrived at Porsche to replace the designer (with an American name I think, can't recall it) who designed the Porsche for some years, 996, CGT, Boxster and...Cayenne. After the Cayenne and the 996 I wanted him to left ASAP, but the 997 proved me wrong. Now it's Mauer, so we may see also a slight change of style at Porsche?

I agree for the E-Class, I still don't know what to think about it. That said, we only have spy shots and very wrong or very bad PS, so let's just wait. The W204 is awesome, the CL looked awful untill the last moment and then...WOW!

, so I have great hopes for the W212.

Where I have doubts, is for the interior... The W204 or GLK have good interiors, but not more, and the S-Class is completely inspired by the 7er. So a change of design for the interior would not bother me that much I have to say...

PHYBENZ · 03-26-2008, 09:15 AM

The guy doesn't have a bad resume... It should be inteesting to see if the direction really changes, because in the end the board or at least Zietsch probably signs off on a lot of designs.

bmer · 03-26-2008, 09:38 AM

Gordon Wagener talking about the ODC

Wunderkind · 03-26-2008, 10:44 AM

The first sketches of the Boxster and Cayenne were actually done by Mr Pinky Lai. He's Chinese and originally from Hong Kong (same as Anthony Lo). Pinky Lai joined Porsche with his then boss Harm Lagaay from BMW around 1990. I think Pinky also came up with the first sketches of the E31 8 series in the mid 1980's.

Anthony Lo designed the Maybach under Boulay's direction. The design was well-received initially. But somehow fell out of favour when the Maybach reached production.

coolraoul · 03-26-2008, 10:57 AM

Harm Lagaay, exactly.

As far as the Maybach is concerned...Well initially it was a "Maybach by Mercedes-Benz", hence the obvious MB filiation.

But the final car is very near the concept, it only looks a bit better, that's all.

I think it's not really that the Maybach design fell out of favour. It's that they saw the Phantom and realized that they have been very lazy with the Maybach, basically a W140 with W220 design/equipment/technology and more wood inside, and fancy seats and roof...

The Artist · 03-26-2008, 11:24 AM

wagner is a real cool guy from what ive seen of him on MB clips
he has done the ODC and the GST..
He seem very ambitious

Centurion · 03-26-2008, 03:51 PM

Awesome video bmer, nice find man.

PHYBENZ · 03-26-2008, 04:06 PM

seems pretty young, great gig for him to get.

Merc1 · 03-27-2008, 03:03 AM

OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE

Stuttgart - From mid-2008 onwards, Gorden Wagener is to head the globally active design division of Mercedes-Benz. The diploma’ed designer, aged 39, is to succeed Professor Peter Pfeiffer, who will be retiring after forty years of service with the company. Currently, Gorden Wagener heads the Strategic Advanced Design department and as such acts as director of the Mercedes design studios in California and Japan.

“Gorden Wagener will continue the successful work of Professor Peter Pfeiffer. He was involved to a considerable degree in developing the design of the passenger car models currently on the market, and will lead the Mercedes design into the future with his new and creative ideas”, said Dr. Thomas Weber, member of the Daimler Board of Management.

Gorden Wagener has worked for Mercedes-Benz since 1997. As head of the Advanced Design department, Wagener is among the pioneers within the Stuttgart automotive brand who develop future vehicle concepts and work towards the realisation of new design strategies. Wagener and his team showcased their ideas for the premium automobile of the future with their much-noted research vehicle F 700, which was presented by Mercedes-Benz in the fall of 2007.

The incumbent Mercedes Head of Design studied Industrial Design at the University of Essen in Germany and later focussed on Transportation Design at the Royal College of Art in London. He began his career as Exterior Designer in 1995, and joined Mercedes-Benz in Sindelfingen two years later. In 1999, he became head of the Exterior / Interior Styling department, designing the models of the GL-, M- and R-Class with his team. In 2002, Wagener was responsible for the design of the models making up the A-, B-, C-, E-, CLK- and CLS-Class. Since 2006, the diploma’ed designer has been directing the Advanced Design department and acted as director of the Mercedes design studios in California and Japan. He was appointed as head of Strategic Advanced Design in 2007. Gorden Wagener was born on September 3rd, 1968 in Essen.

Mercedes-Benz-Blog -- Unmistakable. Unique. Classy. Mercedes-Benz.: Gorden Wagener to become New Head of Design at Mercedes-Benz

M

fortuner · 03-27-2008, 03:35 AM

wish him good luck
hope he can put some stunning designs and cars both interiro and exterior

hope he also uses some off mercedes old design elements

hope he can be the next great mb designer

cawimmer430 · 03-27-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shonguiz

So there were two design chiefs at Mercedes ? Cause according to the first article he was promoted as chief designer in 78.

Sacco, if I remember correctly, was a "student" of Paul Bracq at Mercedes. Paul Bracq ran the show with Sacco being his sidekick and Bracq his mentor. Then in the late 1970s Sacco was promoted and probably given more of a say in terms of design.

shonguiz · 03-27-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cawimmer430

Sacco, if I remember correctly, was a "student" of Paul Bracq at Mercedes. Paul Bracq ran the show with Sacco being his sidekick and Bracq his mentor. Then in the late 1970s Sacco was promoted and probably given more of a say in terms of design.

Bracq didn't really ran the show cause he was never the chief designer, it was Friedrich Geiger who was the big boss then came Sacco.

cawimmer430 · 03-29-2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shonguiz

Bracq didn't really ran the show cause he was never the chief designer, it was Friedrich Geiger who was the big boss then came Sacco.

Yes, but Bracq's designs were very influential at Mercedes. When there were arguments as how to fix the area of the W113 SL where the headlights connect with the engine bay, Bracq's simple design proposal was instantly accepted as it was considered the most visually pleasing and elegant solution. Every Mercedes' designed during Bracq's time at the company was either designed by him and his design team or received stylistic influences from him.

I have a great article on Bracq and his status at Mercedes from Mercedes Enthusiast. It's in English too. Will look for it soon. I'm so busy these days I hardly have time to go online much.

hu§eindesign · 03-29-2008, 08:35 AM

I'm quite offended by the fact that they didn't mention Sacco in the press release, who was the "reral" chief designer till 1999 and eventually had he final word about the design of the brand.
As for Bracq, not sure of the accuracy of my info, but he was never a chief designer at MB, he was what Gordon Wagener is these days: A talented designer who gave shape to most of the MB line-up.
I think it was time for Pfeifer to retire. The cars that were designer in his era of leading he design of MB (1999-2008) were not the best MB could do. They're way too american for a traditioon-oriented German car maker, and they will never reach to level of timelessness Sacco's-overseen designs had. Many designers realised that and left (as Wunderkind already said + Micheal Fink, designer of the CLS/fist CLK) and any of them would have been a great successor of Pfeifer if they were still there. Steve Mattin (1st A/R230 SL/W164 ML) and Murat Günak (1st SLK/Peugeot 206/previous chief design of VW) would have been my candidates.
Not sure what kind of a "revolution" we should expect for Wagener, there might not be even an evolution, since a large part of MB's line-up is already a part of his portfolio. He seems to be a part of what I don't really like about MB's design theses days.
let's just wait and see. I guess we'll be seeing the first design under the supervision of Wagener in 2011/2012

Mr. Mercedes · 03-29-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hu§eindesign

I'm quite offended by the fact that they didn't mention Sacco in the press release, who was the "reral" chief designer till 1999 and eventually had he final word about the design of the brand.
As for Bracq, not sure of the accuracy of my info, but he was never a chief designer at MB, he was what Gordon Wagener is these days: A talented designer who gave shape to most of the MB line-up.
I think it was time for Pfeifer to retire. The cars that were designer in his era of leading he design of MB (1999-2008) were not the best MB could do. They're way too american for a traditioon-oriented German car maker, and they will never reach to level of timelessness Sacco's-overseen designs had. Many designers realised that and left (as Wunderkind already said + Micheal Fink, designer of the CLS/fist CLK) and any of them would have been a great successor of Pfeifer if they were still there. Steve Mattin (1st A/R230 SL/W164 ML) and Murat Günak (1st SLK/Peugeot 206/previous chief design of VW) would have been my candidates.
Not sure what kind of a "revolution" we should expect for Wagener, there might not be even an evolution, since a large part of MB's line-up is already a part of his portfolio. He seems to be a part of what I don't really like about MB's design theses days.
let's just wait and see. I guess we'll be seeing the first design under the supervision of Wagener in 2011/2012

What worries me a little is that Wagener seems to be behind most of the 'Americanized' MB's. While it was inevitable this had to be done to appease the almighty American market (BMW did it, MB did it and Audi is on its way), I hope he doesn't take it too far.

Respect for Mercedes traditional design values must be preserved!

I don't think the talent drain was because of a lack of respect for Pfeiffer as a designer. It was probably more about power struggles, egos and headlining job offers elsewhere. And in most cases the designers that have left have produced nothing close to what they did at MB or even what MB has done since their departure. Well nothing that comes to my mind.

What fantastic pieces of work have Steve Mattin, Murat Günak, Michael Fink and all the others done since?

I'd really like to know.

hu§eindesign · 03-30-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mercedes

What worries me a little is that Wagener seems to be behind most of the 'Americanized' MB's. While it was inevitable this had to be done to appease the almighty American market (BMW did it, MB did it and Audi is on its way), I hope he doesn't take it too far.

Respect for Mercedes traditional design values must be preserved!

This was what i meant.. he/his team is/are responsible for a large part of Mb's current lineup. So I'm not really sure of a new direction coming. this was probably one of the reasons why wagener ws appointed nwe chief designer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mercedes

What fantastic pieces of work have Steve Mattin, Murat Günak, Michael Fink and all the others done since?

I'd really like to know.

Steve Mattin hasn't been that long at Volvo. The XC60 Concept was -as far as I know- his first "public" lead project at Volvo. Not sure whether he he was early enough to lead the realisation of the production model, time seems too short for that.

Michael Fink left MB to be the head of Hyundai/Kia's European design center. He was there for a very short time. I had contact with him and last thing I knew from him that he was working at the Austrian design company Design A Storz, but that was like 2 years ago, not sure whether he's still there.

Murat Günak was responsible for VW's new face - the chromy mask, which, to be honest, wasn't really a remarkable work. But before that he was at Peugeot and there he designed the Peugeot 206, which was so influental to Peugeot's design, that they're still duplicating it in all sizes 10 years after. The car was extremely successfull and topped the list of the most sold cars in Europe for a while and is without any doubt an icon of modern car design.

Some of their post-MB work wasn't as remarkable as their work at MB, and that's because their tasks became much harder when they left.
See, the hardest task a car design could get is to create a new face for a company without a face or heritage. Hyundai/Kia had no heritage so it's really hard to create a new face for them, Mercedes or BMW are traditional makers with lots of heritage and a huge archive of wonderful design that could be quoted any time designers get stuck. I don't think Bangle's Work would have been recognized/respected that much if he worked for a maker with much less tradition than BMW.
In VW's case the problem was creating a face for their products. The company doesn't lack tradition or heritage but they lack a reconizable face like Mercedes's grills or BMW' kidneys. So the task of Mr. Günak was't that easy as many thought and that's why his work might appear less remarkable that his work at MB.
Peter Schryer is facing the same problem righ now as the chief designer of Kia. It's much harder o start with a blank sheet of paper than build upon something already brilliant.

Mr. Mercedes · 03-30-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hu§eindesign

This was what i meant.. he/his team is/are responsible for a large part of Mb's current lineup. So I'm not really sure of a new direction coming. this was probably one of the reasons why wagener ws appointed nwe chief designer.

Steve Mattin hasn't been that long at Volvo. The XC60 Concept was -as far as I know- his first "public" lead project at Volvo. Not sure whether he he was early enough to lead the realisation of the production model, time seems too short for that.

Michael Fink left MB to be the head of Hyundai/Kia's European design center. He was there for a very short time. I had contact with him and last thing I knew from him that he was working at the Austrian design company Design A Storz, but that was like 2 years ago, not sure whether he's still there.

Murat Günak was responsible for VW's new face - the chromy mask, which, to be honest, wasn't really a remarkable work. But before that he was at Peugeot and there he designed the Peugeot 206, which was so influental to Peugeot's design, that they're still duplicating it in all sizes 10 years after. The car was extremely successfull and topped the list of the most sold cars in Europe for a while and is without any doubt an icon of modern car design.

Some of their post-MB work wasn't as remarkable as their work at MB, and that's because their tasks became much harder when they left.
See, the hardest task a car design could get is to create a new face for a company without a face or heritage. Hyundai/Kia had no heritage so it's really hard to create a new face for them, Mercedes or BMW are traditional makers with lots of heritage and a huge archive of wonderful design that could be quoted any time designers get stuck. I don't think Bangle's Work would have been recognized/respected that much if he worked for a maker with much less tradition than BMW.
In VW's case the problem was creating a face for their products. The company doesn't lack tradition or heritage but they lack a reconizable face like Mercedes's grills or BMW' kidneys. So the task of Mr. Günak was't that easy as many thought and that's why his work might appear less remarkable that his work at MB.
Peter Schryer is facing the same problem righ now as the chief designer of Kia. It's much harder o start with a blank sheet of paper than build upon something already brilliant.

Thanks for that Husseign!

Thats what I love about MB, BMW and AUDI. They have such strong design traditions that their cars are always instantly recognizable...and in most cases very attractive.

I think some of those designers would now be deeply regretting their decision to leave MB.

Who are the notable designers in MB now?

What I find very disturbing is the plethora of German design elements appearing on foreign cars, particularly Korean ones. And if its these ex Euro designers who have taken them there as they head up the Korean design studios, it really is a pathetic effort.

Murat Ganuk and the VW face...while quite attractive, is hardly what I would call design. More like a blatant rip off of an Audi idea. What would have been next, a VW logo standing on top of the bonnet ala the Mercedes star?

The Artist · 11-03-2008, 09:22 AM

There are 2 great videos under the cars category on MB tv...
One about retiring Prof Pfieffer.. and one about the new head of design Gordon Wagner..

Bangle is also in the video with his usuall jungle beard..

http://www.mercedes-benz.tv/

Kowalski · 11-03-2008, 09:29 AM

Bruno Sacco was responsible for the best looking S-Class ever, IMO.

Gorgeous...

Centurion · 11-03-2008, 09:48 AM

^^
Perfection right there.

cawimmer430 · 11-04-2008, 06:58 AM

Man, I miss the 300SE.

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Mercedes-Benz design chief to retire after 40 years