German Car Forum

Isn't that the case with the 3.0 from BMW as well? You poor sods state side gets the really old version with 231 (imperial) hp version while we get the 272 hp in the 528/530?

No BMW does the DI turbo 3.0L with 300hp in everything, 335i, 535i etc. The previous 760Li had DI years ago and was one of the first to employ it here.

M

Well doesn;t the US get the CGI V6 ones? that one is DI.

We get that too, the 3.0TT with 306 hp (not in 5-series) but the N/A 3.0 in Europe gets 272 hp. In the US they only have 231.

Yeah our base 3.0L does without DI correct.

M

I'm still curious what differences you were expecting.
Did you expect the V8 twinturbo to be faster in acceleration, for lets say 2 seconds difference up to 100km/h?

Last V8 with 367hp for 750i was competive as well.
This is a comparison from Autozeitung:
BMW 750i, 367hp:
0-100km/h: 5.9 sec, 0-160km/h: 13.2 sec, 0-200km/h: 21,3 sec
-----
S500, 388hp:
0-100km/h: 6.0 sec, 0-160km/h: 13.8 sec, 0-200km/h: 21,3 sec

Here is another comparison from TeknikensVarld:
BMW 750i, 367hp:
0-100km/h: 6.7 sec, 0-160km/h: 14.1 sec
-----
S500, 388hp:
0-100km/h: 6.4 sec, 0-160km/h: 13.8 sec

As you can see the differences aren't much here either but still BMW decided to update the engine. Why ?
Because the new V8 Twinturbo is a better engine, more clean and up-to-date with all the future EU standards. Better fuel consumption despite being more powerful. It's better engine for everyday driving than a N/A engine is.
I think S500 engine will be updated within 3 years to meet up with new rules and laws. Mercedes can't avoid too long.

Strange. But on the other hand, we have the 272 hp so we, in a sense, does not need the 3.0TT awhile you guys have the 3.0TT and subsequently does not ned the 272 hp 3.0 N/A engine. You should, however, have had the 265 hp 3.0 N/A engine, that is a big enough step below the 3.0TT. We, on the other hand, get the 540i with a V8 and 306 hp (-who buys that?).

Better engine because it passes regulations that aren't even place yet? Who says a turbo engine is better for everyday driving? The BMW engine is better at fuel consumption yes....when you drive it like Mrs Daisy, but when you push it (it is a BMW afterall) it drinks. What laws and regulations does the MB V8 not meet?


Sounds like a pretty weak case for a "superior" engine IMO. A little bit better maybe, but hardly something other-worldly as some try to make it sound.


M

No, I have a really hard time understanding how a FI engine could be better for everyday consumption... and, frankly, I have not yet seen an FI engine performning better an an equivalent NA engine in everyday driving.

For all out performance, fine, it is a hit... but the consumption will almost always suffer from FI. Therefore, they better change that cycle used for the EU standard measurement to better show how people really use their vehicles.

Hi Tarek, thanks for replying

Who says turbo engines are better than N/A engines? thats what I've been hearing since I become a member, this always been the subject in the hands of Turbo defenders. Somehow I can agree on it since the torque is much higher and the power range is wider.
Personally I prefer N/A engines when you have to get up high in the rpm to get the car moving.

My previous post wasn't about the S-class engine being good or bad, just a reply why BMW updated their engine.
I don't know the laws and regulations but I know there are and the carmakers are paying attention to it. But I know its a difference between Europe and USA. Here laws and regulations are different, probably tougher laws as well. But lets not get into politics since everyone already know US doesn't always agree with Europe in environmental issues

You are welcome..

I simply didn't reply coz Marcus summed it quite well,my saying wouldn't add mush to his.

Well I think it would be better to go by your own experiences then because this really doesn't answer the question or support the case you were trying to make for the BMW V8. I'd say that the BMW V8's superiority comes in the form of more power and torque, not really fuel consumption unless you're not going to push it. Cleaner emissions too I'm sure. There is also a ever so slight performance edge.

I personally don't think a turbocharged engine is the idea engine for a luxury sedan. Sports cars yes, but luxury sedans now. There is a lag issue which will never be fully elimnated. BMW and others have gotten it down to something very miniscule, but its still there compared to a naturally aspirated engine.

I drove a turbocharged car for 9 years it was fun, but in this class I'd pass unless it was a V12. The V12s from both Mercedes and BMW are large enough in capacity to not be found wanting for torque/response before the turbos kick in.

Other than whatever law/regs that MB V8 may or may not meet, I think the case of saying the MB V8 needs to upgraded is on paper only. 400hp just looks and sounds better than 382hp.


M

I can't see where Marcus answered my questions to you , regarding difference in acceleration You say you expected more and I'm just curious about the difference you mention.
Oh well , you refuse to answer so I wont stalking you anymore about this thing

On acceleration, IMO unless we're talking about a clear 1/2 second advantage then it will be a wash in most cases. Once you get past the 1/2 second mark you can see the superior/faster machine pulling ahead. Edmunds times are always on the slow side though. Everyone else in the known world gets better times for the S550.

M

Cause everyday driving you are not really pushing it (unless you have a lead foot). A very simplified way to look at it is, off boost, a turbo engine is like a smaller NA engine. And on boost, like a bigger N/A engine.

Turbos (unlike superchargers) don't by itself consume extra fuel, since it is runs off exhaust gases. The extra fuel consumption when it is on boost comes from the extra fuel needed to burn the additional amount of charge the turbos are sucking in and when it is off bost it doesn't need that.

I get your point, people does not use the engine. But, in very many cases they do. My point is that the cycle needs to be redefined...

...at least to show that FI for performance engines are not the way to go, that path is just to play with numbers, as people who gets themselves a top tier performance sedan or coupe form one of the german brands are not going to not use the power. Hence, using FI for hat segment is completely and utterly irrelevant, at least if the real world is something to measure by...

Half a sec at quarter mile (as in this case) is huge. Like almost 5 car lengths.

Yeah thats why I said that is where you can really see the difference, but I was really talking about 0-60 times. Which in this case the BMW clearly had the edge.

M

Seems fair, I figured it would be somewhere around 25 meters on the quarter.

And there the difference seems a bit steep, considering the small gap in hp performance.

I disagree with that reasoning. I drive a M3, albeit an old one and 90% of the time I am driving at a sedate phase. I would think an older driver in a bigger luxury car be even more sane than that. On public roads, most people drive very conservatively most of the time even when driving cars are capable of amazing performance.

Well, looking at the current and future target demo for the M division I would say you would be getting more and more right by the day. I'm afarid my reasoning was based on what M used to be.

BTW, give that poor, understimulated M3 a good run once in a while...

Oh, I do, at every possible off and on ramp. Just not at traffic lights anymore - that gets older faster than a porn star's <bleep>.

Ok now since u insist what was the question again?..