German Car Forum

This is true for a many except me...lol. Seriously though, the one I have issues with is Consumer Reports. I vowed that if they said the same old thing about the 2007 and 2008 model Benzes (which have improved in all the other "surveys") then I was finished with them and wouldn't give a rats arse what they said anymore. Then I stumbled across this on a Benz blog:

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked about Consumer Reports reliability ratings for Mercedes Benz, and had to explain away what they said and how they look at things. Well great news!!! In this month’s Consumer Reports, Mercedes Benz had 5 vehicles listed in the Newly Recommended Column. The E350, ML350, S550, SL and SLK. In previous years we got a black eye for putting out a product that wasn’t what it should be, and that is why we were rated so low. As I have continually told all my clients we, as a brand, have come full circle. So way to go Mercedes…keep up the great work.


Amazing. I'll have to check out this issue immediately. Consumer Reports was the last one giving Mercedes a "black eye" regarding quality and reliability.


M

I don't pay too much attention to JD Powers - sure it is an indication but since most, like this one, is just a measure of perceived quality and not quality per se it isnot that interesting. Audi used to be the masters of perceived quality - now the differences are smaller between the Germans.

I find it very strange that the C-class scored so much better, are'nt the cars the same in the US as here in Europe?

Well the one survey from JDP that does matter is the 3-year dependability survey. It has none of this "how you feel" or "how does appeal to you" stuff in it. It is the real deal and that is where Mercedes is still below average because the cars from 2005 weren't anything to write home about. It won't be until at least 2010 before Mercedes improves meaningfully in the JDP Dependability Survey.


M

I totally agree. That one is relevant if it is based on real things like how many times the car was in the shop for a fix and such.

I remember when Volvo released the 850 back in -92/-93 sometime. It was not long before the gearboxes started to break down. As a result Volvo begun exchanging the gearboxes when the cars were in for a normal service. Only they did not tell the customers as they were afraid this would have a huge impact on their reputation as a maker of quality vehicles.

I think these type of "under-the-cover" call-backs are more common than we are lead to believe.

Something like this:

FN Reliability Survey

FN50: BMW tops 881,000 vehicle reliability survey | Fleet News

Excellent BMW !!!!
and my car is on top 10

Let me welcome you to the automotive world. These manufacturers cares about these independent surveys and their reputation depends on it. Consumers care about reports, surveys and public opinion since it helps them make the right choice preparing for a purchase, especially an involving one like the purchase of a new car. Nobody want to buy an unreliable car. You say you only trust yourself which is sadly highly incorrect. The chances that your family bought a BMW in 1994 wouldn't have happened if it was revealed in magazines and news papers that the reliability is rubbish.

No, if BMW was rubbish we wouldn't buy it but today there arent many unreliable cars. Now 15 years later we know we did the right choice back in 1994. Today everyone know BMW's are good cars so you aren't buying the pig in a bag and today we dont need 60 days surveys to know what you are getting.
Only intresting survey are those telling how good a 3 year old car is, a survey based on only 60 days doesnt mean much.

It actually does mean a lot since it tell you how good a car coming straight off the show room. There's nothing that turns consumers off more than faults and defects during the initial days of ownership. Yes we all know that BMW makes good cars but as with any other manufacturer nothing is bullet proof and sometimes there are things that plague products which affect some owners.

Working for Volvo I've seen the behind the scene stuff done to cars. Tweaks are being made constantly improving reliability and ironing out various small issues that's been bothering certain owners. And those are things an auto journalist can't inform you about since they just test drive the car for a day and give it back. Only owners can tell us the full story of ownership which is why these surveys are vital for both consumers and manufacturers.

This is called market research and evaluation of a product. You might not see the value of it but millions of other people who aren't petrol heads find surveys like this to be very help up, and manufacturers love surveys since they assist them in selecting areas of a product that needs improvement.

Yes its only them, thats correct but its only intresting if the car is at least 2-3 year old since a lot more people are buying used cars than brand new.
A lot can suddenly happen after 60 days but that we will never hear about in J.D.
And in Europe we have other surveys we listen to.

Extremely vital points Centurion, well taken.

A survey after 2-3 years tells a different story from a 60 day survey. Car manufacturing is not a perfect business. The ideal is that every fully assembled car should be perfect. Sadly this doesn't happen as the assembly process involves human beings. Rolling off the assembly line every single car gets inspected and 5-10% of them might not been assembled incorrectly and therefore gets adjusted.

A 60 day review measures how bad a car is suffering from manufacturing defects. You can buy a car that's highly reliable but still suffered from various faults during the initial days of ownership. After all, who wants to turn a newly bought car to the dealer for repair just 2 weeks after purchase? Yes a survey after 2-3 years is more important but a 60 day review has it's importance as it measures consumers' first impression of new purchase.

This agree with. And all our bimmers have been flawless the first 60 days

If you looking for a used car or planning to keep you car for a long time you want long term reports. Surveys measured when the warranty is out and the car start costing you money then I'm intrested.. no more need to be said but thanks Luw for your previous replies.

if surveys are intresting for you then I suggest you read this

FN50: BMW tops 881,000 vehicle reliability survey | Fleet News

^
Your missing the point Just_Me ..

I`m looking at a survey that`s pictured in black and white, meaning where do I start. I don`t know how that survey is handled in the first 60-days of ownership which is a vital introductory, even for people who want to switch over to a different brand of vehicle, thay don`t have much to go on with that survey.

As Centurion pointed out a wider, more comprehensive preception will lead
a would be buyer to a better choice of vehicle and is the reason I like the JD Power survey. It`s designed to cover every area of the vehicle, Interior Quality, Body Quality and your psychicological preception of that quality also plays a vital role in the quality as well. these points are all tied in to the final score of the vehicle with the JD Power system.

It`s an extremely comprehensive survey that`s going to be hard to beat by most any other out there.




On top of that I found this info in your "BMW best brand survey"..

"Only multi-marque leasing companies were included in the survey, covering the most reliable cars according to the number of breakdowns per 100 of each type of model on each leasing company’s fleet."


what the heck does this have to do with owning the car..
a lease period???

GTA , Im not missing any points. I hear you loud and clear.
But again , only intresting JD Power is the survey presenting statistic over a long term period. There is nothing that says the C-class problems might appear a lot more after 100 days. 60 days is too short period and much more problems might appear after but we'll never know since JD insist 60 days is to go. Say what you want GTA but I'm not intrested in short time surveys.
I'm happy carmakers are giving us warranties on new cars so we dont have to pay for possible faults.

And my survey, its not worse than your JD Power. Now you just trying to find flaws cause the E90 ranked above C-class
Not long ago we had a survey in Sweden and again BMW overall was ranked above Mercedes.
What car!, ADAC are other surveys we have in Europe. As far as I know we dont use JD Power here.

Fanboy mode ON!
I didn`t mension that this car was better than that.. my point was the
comprehension of the JD Power survey and how it compares with others.





-and how extensive was that study. It was probably as short and flawed as this one like comparing leased vehicles (what a fricken joke!).. Look, I can see where this is going and again it`s turned into another fanboy-blowout that all but ruins valuable points in a discussion.

Peace out man.. I don`t think I need to remind you to be more open minded in your points, (and just plain logic itself) It`s not like we are talking about each others` girlfriend or wives and our defences are so hi that thay become holy objects.

You did not need to turn that mode on ;-)

Well, I guess we all agree that most surveys serve some sort of purpose. For instance, this JD Power survey covering the first 60 days is important as it measures the perceived quality (has very little to do with real quality). Why is this important? Because it sets the mind of the buyer. Audi used to be masters of this art...

The FN50 tells you less about perceived quality. From what I understand they measure the cost of running the car over a year. One weakness with the FN50 is that we do not know the age of the cars. Leasing cars har often held for 2 - 3 years.

All of these surveys are important to varying degrees IMO. The short term ones, 60 or 90 days show that the cars aren't lemons right out the gate. Mercedes needed to show improvement in these because with previous generation models like the ML, W220 S-Class and first 3 years of the current E-Class (W211) Mercedes couldn't even pass the 90 day tests! The short term surveys at best do hint at a quality car, that means something if not the world.

That said the real survey to use in America is the JDP Dependability Survey. It measures the first 3 years (used to be 5 years) from the original owner. That is the best way to get the real answers, here again Mercedes is laging because in 2008 we're looking at 2005 cars.....not the darkest year for MB, but not a good one by any means either. JDP does so care about long term quality, and they only changed the period from 5 to 3 years at the car makers request. Citing that by the time the data is analyzed the car has in most case been redesigned already or is in its last model year(s) rendering the survey useless.


Consumer Reports is whole other animal. I won't bore the readers with my loathing of them.


M

*urk* picture posted by GTA scared the crap out of me.
I'll end this thread by saying I agree with Merc last post

BTW talking about realibilty, yesterday I had my first real problem with my babybimmer after 14 months ownership. Talking about realibilty and how good my car been its apparently not a good thing, I got punished