German Car Forum

^ Of course Lexus is a real Brand. A brand is essentially a concept (intellectual property) -- otherwise we could argue that Smart, Maybach, Rolls-Royce, Audi, Lamborghini, etc., are not real brands either.

I don't see how anyone could think Inifnitis are ugly. The G37 Coupe especially is likely the best looking car to come out of Japan in quite some time, IMO.

M

Well, I agree that it is one of the best looking cars to come out of Japan for some time, but still... the front end is adorable while the rear screams "I have come from the 90's to haunt you!".... and that simply does not cut it...

I was between Lexus and Acura but after thinking for a while i voted for Acura.

I don't like Lexus as they are not even close to be considered true luxury automobiles in my book (for example some of the grey leather , wood and aluminium combinations in their interiors are horrible and kitch) , but i believe that Acura is even worse since the same models are sold as Hondas in European markets and that makes me rate them as wannabies.

It's funny though... at least here more people dislike Audi than Infiniti.

^ While I wouldn't rank an Infinity above an Audi one thing that has always annoyed me about them is that they still offer FWD. There is nothing luxurious about torque steer in a FWD A8, and that is one thing you will never experience in any modern Infinity.

Not suprising considering the voting pool on GCZ is predominantly European.

There's a difference between an unappreciation of a brand, and an obvious blind-bias against one. Quite comical reading any discussion on here relating to a Japanese brand, especially when talking about Lexus and Toyota.

Comical on some occasions... and downright pathetic at other times. But each to his own I guess...

Lexus by far. I almost want to say they're worthless imitators.

• Mercedes came out with a 7 Speed transmission, Lexus came out with an 8.
• BMW has been working on self-parking for years, Lexus threw a system that was garbage into theirs.
• Mercedes has had auto-wipers for years, Lexus recently began advertising them as if they had invented them.
• Mercedes reintroduced the world to hardtop convertibles, Lexus jumped on board, advertising the SC as if it were a gift from the Lexus gods.
• And thanks to Lexus (Toyota), no one in the world knows what the word "Hybrid" means anymore.

As dogmatic and ridiculous as it may sound, they're not true luxury cars. And that's what kills it. Instead of presenting their products as merely 'desirable', they represent them as true competitors to Mercedes and BMW.

I never hated Lexus, and originally thought the LS and GS were handsome cars, until I sat in them. -- Unfortunately nothing seems to beat the fit and finish of a Mercedes or BMW. And no one quite gets the interior or exterior proportions of cars like they do either.

Lexus just seems, by and far, like a 2nd place runner in the luxury car world.

• So I guess going on that line of thinking Mercedes copied whoever debuted a 6 Speed transmission. Silly argument... it's called progression and competition. One company introduces something, and another company tries to better it. How is Lexus an 'imitator' here? If anything, they've outdone Mercedes and BMW and everyone by introducing the world's first 8 Speed tranny. I guess when MB does finally introduce an 8-speed of their own you'll be happy to admit MB are being 'imitators'.
  
  
  
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  BMW has been working on self-parking for years, Lexus threw a system that was garbage into theirs.

  So I guess by following that logic every other car company is a 'worthless imitator' because they copied MB in producing vehicles. And also, BMW's being 'working on' this technology, but have they yet brought this into production? Don't get me wrong, I'm a BMW fan, but I don't let that blind me to simple common-sense. It may be garbage, but it was developed and it does mostly work. Just like many still say that i-Drive is 'garbage', but BMW was still one of the first to bring the i-Drive concept into production..... but I don't hear you saying MB and Audi are 'worthless imitators'.
  
  
  
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  Mercedes has had auto-wipers for years, Lexus recently began advertising them as if they had invented them.

  Yeh, it's called marketing. Go do a quick wiki search on what marketing involves and you'll soon come to realise that in the world of marketing, it's not what you've done that matters, it's what you can make the consumer believe you've done. A couple of years ago I had that exact same fanboy/immature attitude about Lexus when one day I saw a billboard advertisement promoting how the Lexus RX now features headlights which 'look around the corner'. I kept on thinking how the E60 5er had debuted with that technology at least a year before the RX had it...... BUT... as I said, that's an immature way of thinking of it. If Lexus is clever enough to actually invest marketing dollars/euros into putting emphasis on these features, then it is the other company's fault for not doing the same thing earlier to let consumer's know who truely brought such a technology to the automotive world. If BMW didn't put enough effort to promote Adaptive Headlight Technology, then it's their fault because it's an opportunity missed. Lexus saw this opportunity....and used the right channels to make consumers aware of the technology. Let's get one thing straight, Lexus never actually claimed to have invented the technology, they've just marketed in such a way that you (and any ordinary consumer) would form the impression that they did invent it. Remember, it's not what you actually did, it's what you can make people believe you did. In other words, marketing at an advertising level is all about smokes and mirrors. Marketers and magicians.. they're one and the same. They make you believe things which aren't really there. All in the mind.....
  
  
  
  
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  Mercedes reintroduced the world to hardtop convertibles, Lexus jumped on board, advertising the SC as if it were a gift from the Lexus gods.

  Gotta love them marketers! David Copperfield eat your heart out...
  
  
  
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  And thanks to Lexus (Toyota), no one in the world knows what the word "Hybrid" means anymore.

Well I sure don't see the other manufacturers trying to convey the 'true' meaning of the 'Hybrid'. Which part of any of the Toyota & Lexus hybrid vehicles aren't actually hybrids? In it's simplest form, a hybrid is simply combining two or more things/technologies into something new. Petrol + Electric = Hybrid..... or have I missed something?
It's no suprise that many people in Europe have next to no appreciation for Toyota's hybrids, especially the Prius. But let's not beat a dead horse there...

... I'm guessing the only real problem you have with the Toyota/Lexus hybrids is how they've been marketed as a technology that will turn every road into a beautiful patch of green grass and yellow daisies. Again, refer to my point about marketing above and that should smoothen that chip on your shoulder that you have for Toyota/Lexus.
Toyota/Lexus put a lot of resources into marketing. Many might argue that Toyota/Lexus have to resort to marketing to mask their shortcomings, or to make the brand appear to be something which is truely isn't. If that's your real problem with Toyota/Lexus, then feel free to complain about it to any marketer...they'll smile and say 'well if the consumer is gullible enough to believe it, then why not?'..... and if you think that's not ethical... well, you just need to remember that this is the business world we're talking about. BMW and MB and Audi invest in new niche models to increase their profitability, others reduce their prices.. others do something else.. in this case Toyota/Lexus invest in marketing to get their cars out of their dealerships...because the company's reputation and long-existing reliability sell themselves.

Oh what a feeling some of you guys must get whenever you see a Toyota or Lexus in your sights. Makes me smile seeing so many people get so immaturely worked-up over the magic act that is Marketing...especially when the words Toyota or Lexus are the focal points of their frustrated minds.

Let's not start slinging mud. The contention is that the 8 speed was a response to the Mercedes 7 speed. It was unnecessary at best, and was less a technical innovation than a 'look, mine is bigger than yours.'

In regards to the 6 speed: Mercedes didn't come out with a 7 speed transmission as a response to another manufacturer coming out with a 6. Mercedes did, however, come out with the 7 speed because they thought it would be a 'green' innovation.

The 8 gear system wasn't made because it was 'better', it wasn't made because it was an 'advancement' in technology, it was made as a boasting point pure and simple.

Two things:

1) The argument, again, was that Lexus' action/development was an "I got it first" response to what BMW was doing. No original thinking there.

2) They released a lousy system onto the market because of it. (See three quotes down)

I only have so much space in which to write. And I've always admitted to Mercedes' technical, stylistic, etc. shortcomings or 'bandwagon-ing' -- especially in the last 15 years.

Not to forget: whether or not I acknowledge Mercedes' imitation of i-Drive is irrelevant to whether or not Lexus imitates its competition.

Your point is moot.

This doesn't negate the fact that Lexus imitated them. And Lexus' marketing prowess hardly vindicates their duplicity.

Do we really need to be this vile? Seems parts of your 'fanboy' attitude are still manifesting themselves; albeit from different causes.

But: This demonstrates again how Lexus imitated the competition: they saw an innovation, copied it and rushed it to market.

The only time where seeing and copying an idea are laudable is if what is 'copied' is an inspiration for 'something greater.' Copying and pasting an idea, however, is hardly 'something greater.' Hence my disapproval of Lexus.

As I recall, the argument was simply 'no one knows the meaning of "hybrid" anymore.'

The problem here is that soccer moms and environmental groups believe 'hybrid' to mean 'any car that gets 40+ miles per gallon' and is 'green'. Because of this, they consider the Escalade hybrid an 'oxymoron.'

Unfortunately for them, a hybrid is anything that joins two unlike things. A tank can be a hybrid, an SUV can be a hybrid, and oranges can be hybrids.

Not to quibble about the status of metaethics, but morality doesn't change as you move around the spheres of public and private life

Right is right and A is A, remember. Those are, after all, the basic axioms of ontology and life, aren't they?

Sound like a statement based on nothing more than personal opinion. What exactly was unnecessary. You explained that MB created the 7-speed for 'green' purposes, well it stands to reason that an 8-speed is even more green.

You also said this:
So let me get this straight. When any other manufacturer takes a technology and then uses it for inspiration to produce 'something greater', in your eyes it is laudable... but when Lexus uses a 6-speed and 7-speed transmission as a point of inspiration to produce something greater in the form of an 8-speed transmission you lable it is merely a 'mine is bigger than yours' competition.
If you want to continue to persist that the Lexus 8-speed transmission is not 'something greater' than a 7-speed... well.... it's obvious you've got some bias clouding your simple reasoning.
I could turn around and claim that MB's 7-speed was in response to BMW being the first to introduce a 6-speed automatic into the E65 7er in 2001.

So to go back to your contention that the 8-speed Lexus transmission is nothing more than a 'anything you can do, I can do better' response to MB's 7-speed, then what will your stance be once the BMW F01 7er V12 debuts with an 8-speed, and the upcoming new A8 strongly rumoured to having an 8-speed too?
With that question, my response to your contention is that you've muddled up your bias against Lexus with the natural progress and advancements that competition brings to an industry or product.


You mention this as if it was a matter of fact as opposed to your personal opinion. As I stated above, I could just as easily argue that MB's 7-speed was a 'mine is better than yours' response to the E65 7er's 6-speed transmission...and I could standby that statement by refusing to accept that MB's 7-speed provides some benefit over BMW's 6-speed.

And Lexus didn't produce an 8-speed for the same common-sense reason... or is it that only in your eyes is Lexus adding an extra speed non-beneficial, but when MB does the exact same thing a few years earlier you claim the end result was 'something better'. Sounds like something similar to a double standard.... or denial.


Again, you brandish such a statement as if it's an indisputable fact. The 8-speed is better than the 7-speed, especially in being 'green', hence it is an 'advancement' in technology (a minor advancement, but an advancement nonetheless). So it is 'something better'.... pure and simple.



Two things:

Put that down to the opportunistic tactics of Toyota/Lexus marketing in creating the perception that they were the first to develop such a technology. Who was first or second is a contentious matter, but what is a fact is that BMW didn't invest enough marketing resources to make it clear to consumers that BMW had been developing such a technology before Toyota. A product is only as good as its image/reputation....with image and reputation being at the core of marketing.



Yet it is absolutely relevant to my contention that your views and opinions on the Lexus brand are tainted with a certain level of bias.

My previous sentence is my point.

But back to your original point. Even if you believe that Lexus' auto-parking system is 'garbage' (such an over-dramatic description again highlights your bias).... there is a tactical marketing benefit in being the first to introduce something to the market. For some technologies, being first to the market can be a disadvantage (eg: the wave of criticism BMW received about i-Drive v.1), and at other times it can be a benefit as a result of the nostalgia that surrounds the debut of that technology, with that nostalgia clearly being etched in the minds of consumers.
So you argued that Lexus copied BMW's auto-park technology with a rushed half-assed parking system simply so they could brag of being 'the world's first'... well, what's wrong with that? In a highly competitive market Lexus saw an opportunity and felt that the reputation & image enhancing benefits of being the first to offer the auto-parking technology outweighed the negative of having a 'garbage' system as you so eloquently phrased it.


So MB, Audi and BMW have never imitated one another or other car company's?
My aim is not to disprove your view that Lexus imitated another manufacturer's technology, but rather to determine whether you feel that Lexus is the only luxury manufacturer who imitates other car manufacturers. If you do openly admit that MB, BMW and others also imitate one another, then it's hypocritical that you single out Lexus for something all manufacturers do. If you don't admit to this, and persist with your contention that Lexus is merely a pool of unimaginative engineers who depend on others innovations,... well, then my contention that you are biased holds true.


And how exactly is this a fault of Toyota/Lexus? Every vehicle in their hybrid line-up is exactly that... a hybrid.

If US consumers have become overly-simplistic in their definition of the phrase 'hybrid car', well don't direct your criticism at Toyota/Lexus, but rather to the ignorance of those two groups you've stereotypically generalised.


[/quote]Not to quibble about the status of metaethics, but morality doesn't change as you move around the spheres of public and private life [/quote]

Since when does ethics and morality remain a constant between public and private life? What you consider to be unethical and morally wrong could be very different to my stance on a topic.
What you consider ethical business practice I can say without doubt is different to my view, hence why I gave that example of a marketer giving greater priority to sales and profitability than morality and ethics.


A is indeed A...but I don't agree that 'right is right' is an axiom of life because as per above, what is right and what is wrong varies from one individual to another... well at least that's my opinion.

Seriously, what do you expect? The Lexus brand was launched in Europe 20 years ago and they still haven't really made a proper effort to adapt their cars to European tastes. Where are the (decent) diesels? Where are the wagons? Where's the (relatively) inexpensive coupé? I could go on, but I think that's enough for now.

As for my own vote, after a whole lot of contemplation I voted for BMW, mainly because I hate what has happened to the company in the last few years. I'm not only talking about the changes in their design language (which I find catastrophic), but also the general image they are portraying. It seems to me that they've become increasingly arrogant in their boasts. As I've stated here before, it's the contrast between what BMW used to be and what they now are which bugs me the most. The mere idea that the company which once built such magnificently capable yet visually restrained machines such the E34 M5 now spends its time creating things like the X6 makes me very sad indeed.

So Beemer, what is so great about Lexus that the majority of members here don't seem to understand ? I don't hate their cars, but I don't think they are particularly spectacular either.

Is it possible to have civil discourse with you, or do you never leave your high horse?

The 7 speed and 8 speeds were irrelevant and pointless because, unlike the 6 speeds, Mercedes/Lexus weren't (in general) adding gears onto the range, but squeezing gears into (what was) the MPH range of 5 or 6 gears.

That's generally the case, yes. In art, architecture, music or automotive technology, the standard equally applies.

There's a difference, remember, between copying the Parthenon and creating the Pantheon. -- Try to keep that in mind.

You're right, neither of them was greater than anything. Mercedes' 7 speed failed (and is still failing) and the Lexus 8 speed was meaningless.

And? This hardly negates the point: Mercedes waited several years to introduce 7 speeds, Lexus waited one.

Natural progress here being what? The 'bigger tail fin' syndrome?

You should try reading the post instead of making blind assumptions

Not quite: there's no causal connection between my express acknowledgment of Mercedes' imitation and Lexus' status as an imitator.

You might want to brush up on basic logic.

Much more: Mercedes and BMW have been pioneers in automotive technology. If you read the first post carefully, you'll notice I said 'It seems Lexus is always a second place runner in the luxury car world.'



'Over-dramatic' statements aren't the standard for judging bias. If the statements fit the bill, then there's no issue to be had.

Not to mention, tactical and marketing benefits (Lexus' marketing prowess) are irrelevant to whether or not they imitated the competition.

I'm sorry that continues to escape you.

Irrelevant again: we're not making normative judgments about being first in the market, we're talking about imitations and knock offs.

Same fallacious argument over and over again:

1) Whether or not Mercedes or Audi have ever imitated anyone is irrelevant to whether or not Lexus imitates anyone.

2) Pointing out that Lexus routinely copies the competition does not, in turn, mean Mercedes/Audi/BMW have never done the same.

The discussion was about Lexus, remember. If the same criticisms apply to Mercedes or BMW, then so be it.

Then half your post was irrelevant

It was a comment made in playful jest. Please tell me you're not this blind?

That's akin to asking "Since when does math stay the same outside math class?"

And whether or not two people disagree about an issue does not mean there are 'two right answers' or 'no single right answer.'

Not to burst your bubble, but if there are no absolute moral principles, then there is only subjectivism. If there is only subjectivism, then there can only be focus on the individual. If there is only focus on the individual, then morality exists only insofar as a person's interest in it does.

If you take a Humean approach and give morality over to sentiment, then as soon as our sentiments change, so too does morality.

Moral subjectivism is irrelevant. All murder, rape, racism and genocide is vindicated under its worthless standard.

And so you can't simultaneously hold that 'right is indeed not right.'

This isn't the place for an argument about ethics, however.

I was always under the impression that Lexus was never serious about Europe in the first place. If they were they would have done more to be more competitive. Diesels, efficient engines, wagons, coupes, "affordable" fun cars (Z4, SLK, TT, Boxster competitors), various trims etc. That's all missing from their lineup and if these things are not there then there is no appeal.

Or maybe some top people back in Tokyo have been slamming down too much Sake and believe that "eventually" Lexus sales in Europe will automatically rise because their cars are perfection! God himself couldn't have designed something better.

*Sarcasm intended*