German Car Forum

Monster · 08-12-2008, 10:42 AM

Guys, this is a good read, even if you are not a fan of these type of cars it is still worth reading the article.

Quote:

FPV F6 v HSV GTS
Bruce Newton | July 11, 2008

Two very disparate approaches to achieving big engine outputs have netted a similar result: a pair of the best local sports sedans ever.

We knew this time would come. Anyone raised in the generation where performance was ruled by large-capacity pushrod V8s has known for a while that time, as well as technology, was against them.

But that makes it no easier to cast the V8 engine in the supporting role and hail the new lead in this passion play with two fewer cylinders ... and a turbocharger.

Is that what we must do? By any logical measure, FPV’s FG F6, and its latest, awesome ‘F6 310’ iteration of the locally-built forced induction 4.0-litre in-line six, is the new Aussie rear-wheel-drive muscle-car standard.

Line it up against the latest and perhaps greatest local V8 sports sedan, HSV’s 6.2-litre LS3 GTS, and the F6 is faster, even more dynamically inspired, a touch easier on fuel and a substantial $10,000 cheaper.

Allow emotion to enter the arena and the issue becomes less clear-cut, for the GTS is a bellowing, magnificent beast, railing against the changing of the guard. It also has better brakes than the F6, a more distinctive and charismatic look, and a power delivery less likely to catch out an unwary or novice driver.

The F6 requires more respect. Flatten the throttle and it’s like being run down and trampled by a marauding bull. The trick is to avoid a goring.

The in-gear acceleration times tell the story. Our F6 with the new Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual gearbox completes the third-gear 80-120km/h sprint in 3.0sec. That mutilates a 911 Carrera S, BMW M3 or Benz C63 AMG. (Interestingly, one car it doesn’t beat is the F6 with the ZF auto tested last issue. It storms the increment in just 2.7 seconds.)

What other times did the manual F6 achieve? Well, it didn’t break five seconds for 0-100km/h, and it didn’t beat the auto F6 either. Not even with V8 Supercar gun Mark Winterbottom at the controls. More on him, Holden rival Paul Dumbrell, and their experiences of the F6 and GTS at Calder Park later.

For now let’s concentrate on the public road. On dry tarmac, the F6 is awe-inspiring but sane. You can retain traction unless you’re being mischievous. There is a profound sense of integrated communication – the F6 feels lighter and more controllable than its 1815kg kerb weight and 2915mm wheelbase would suggest.

This car is essentially a high-boost XR6 Turbo with retuned suspension and 19-inch (rather than 18-inch) Dunlop Sport Maxx tyres. And it drives like it, which is a compliment. The front-end is simply superb, the forward-mounted variable-rate steering rack transits with grace from light to meaty the farther off-centre it gets. But a fine grain of feel remains constant. The uprated rear-end offers much as well, but obviously has been charged with a tough job corralling 565Nm. When the inevitable breakaway does come, it’s progressive and fun.

In fact it’s heaven. But in the wet ... crikey! Be too generous with the throttle and the F6 crabs forward, wheel spinning until stability control cuts in.

You’re laughing and the engine’s hissing, howling and eventually whistling as it builds and dumps boost.

Now put on your serious face and try and drive straight. The F6 starts winding up the boost and transforming into a monster from about 2500rpm, so if you stay below that point, you’re fine. Get the Garrett’s turbine up and spinning you’re still fine – but going pretty fast. It’s in the few moments of transition where you’re not so fine. It feels like the elevator cable has been lopped.

So stay low in the revs and in a higher gear, feed in the revs gently and the F6 responds with traction and straight-line drive. The engine ceases to be the car’s dominant character, allowing the chassis to shine.

There’s breadth as well as depth of ability here because the F6 rides with a level of comfort that belies its overwhelming performance. The only real giveaways are a touch more cornering bodyroll and pitch under brakes than you might expect from a committed sports sedan. There’s also the occasional bobble from the front end, as the dampers take a while to soak up large hits.

It’s a far cry from the clunky days of yore. The closest the F6 came to triggering those halcyon yet archaic memories was at ultra-low manoeuvring speeds when some driveline snatch and whine became apparent. However, it soon sorts itself out if speeds rise only marginally. And just how much better the TR6060 gearbox is than the T56 M10 in the GTS (previously also the standard manual in FPVs) is obvious. Everyone missed gears in the HSV; no-one did in the FPV.

The GTS also rekindles memories in the harshness of its MRC suspension’s ride. The pay-off is rigid, flat-riding body control that helps this heavy (1845kg), long (4.94m) car achieve great handling. But it’s not quite as delicate in its feedback through the steering wheel or as balanced as the F6. The GTS feels heavier in the nose, despite the all-aluminium LS3 being light and located well back and low in the chassis. Factor in the massive 275/30R20 rear Bridgestone Potenza RE050A rubber and high entry speeds into tighter corners can induce understeer.

In the wet, the LS3’s linear delivery is more manageable than that of the F6. But for all its claims of superiority over the 6.0-litre LS2, it’s apparent the LS3 is still left in the shade here. It felt monumental lined up against the FPV GT (Wheels, June 2008), but the F6 offers 565Nm on a torque curve as flat as a tabletop, and that reduces the LS3 to mere greatness. The GTS even surrenders the fuel consumption high ground, albeit marginally – 14.1L/100km versus 13.7L/100km.

The LS3 sounds great and goes hard. But not hard enough. Against the F6, the 80-120km/h third-gear time tells the story – 0.3sec down and left waving bye-bye.

But looking good doing it. Riding on its no-cost option Pentagon alloys and draped in a bodykit straight out of a sci-fi flick, the GTS has created its own identity. It’s much more than a V8 Commodore with extra bits and bobs.

But the FPV is a tarted-up Falcon. The black eye patches are a cheap trick, there’s too much daylight visible under the guards and the alloy wheels are way too familiar. If FPV is to survive and thrive then surely its cars need a stronger, more unique visual identity.

Inside, the F6 is a nicer, lighter and brighter car than the HSV – just as the GT is. There are minor differences between the two FPVs, including rather voluptuous-looking seat trim. But the same hits and misses generally apply, including terrific controls, the dumb start button and debatable placement of the gearshift.

The GTS has too many Commodore links. We love the seats, loathe the poor low-beam lighting and ignore the minor dials set into the top of the binnacle.

Both cars benefit from the massive front, rear and boot space inherent to their donors. They’re also well equipped. Six airbags and stability control are standard for both, while the GTS adds leather trim and a fully powered driver’s seat. The F6 has some pretty powerful comebacks, though, like the ZF auto as a no-cost option.

Add all that up and the F6 emerges as our leader. But to be declared the winner, first it must overcome the HSV on the track. And this time around we’ve prepared something a little more special than usual...

Wheels - FPV F6 v HSV GTS

Supercar showdown

We chuck the keys to the FPV F6 and HSV GTS to a couple of V8 supercar aces. Fire in the hole!

It’s a fine and sunny day at Calder Park, and just as well too. The thought of putting the power down cleanly on Calder’s VHT-coated drag strip in the wet is laughable – particularly in the F6.

To drive these two special cars we’ve called on the services of two special drivers: Mark ‘Frosty’ Winterbottom of Ford Performance Racing and Paul Dumbrell of the HSV Dealer Team.

Their job is to extract Vbox-measured performance times from their affiliated cars, then set hot laps around the 2.28km Calder circuit ... in both cars.

Dumbrell is first up in the GTS, and it’s quickly apparent that he hasn’t had much experience launching street cars, as opposed to V8 Supercars. There’s too much throttle, too much clutch slipping and the times are slow.

However, he works at it and the times comes down, settling at 5.5/13.7 – exactly as we managed last month during the GTS v GT comparo. HSV’s 4.96sec claim seems a long way away.

On to hot laps in the GTS. Dumbrell starts cautiously, feeling things out, although he’s still sliding up the rise, right rear rattling over the coarse rumble strip. But otherwise these are two smooth, straight laps. The first effort is a 1:10.3, then comes a 1:09.4.

“You have to modulate throttle and be cautious because of sheer amount of grunt and the torque of the engine,” he says. “You’ve got to focus on the exit and exploit the straight-line shove the car has got. The driveability of the rear-end is incredible. You can ask a fair bit of it; get plenty of feedback through the rear ... that’s where the time is.”

Now it’s Winterbottom’s turn in the GTS – uncharted territory for the Ford hotshot. One familiarisation lap and he’s into it. There’s noticeably more aggression, hammering the AP brakes, putting the car on its nose and trying to carry more corner speed. The time is a 1:08.8.

Cool down and we go again. But he fluffs the 4-5 change on the straight and then 2-3 change coming out of turn one. Back off, cool down and go again.

It’s another hard-charging lap, but this time too hard, pushing wide in the esses and bouncing over the ripple strip. He goes fractionally slower – 1:08.9.

“It gets to 6000rpm very quickly, the throttle response is strong; the drive is quite strong,” he explains. “But you can feel the bigger tyres on the back. It causes the front to push … and when you pick up the throttle, the front has less grip – the rear is trying to drive the front. It’s very stable, but hard to get the car to turn.”

Into the F6, and despite being in more familiar Blue Oval surroundings, it quickly becomes apparent that Winterbottom has no more experience than Dumbrell at pushing for quick times in street cars. Like his rival, though, he works assiduously at the process. He plays with the launch control mode that maxes engine revs at 3500rpm when the clutch is dipped. But even then the rear tyres are being overwhelmed. Part throttle and lower revs work better and the best result is a 5.4/13.5. That’s slower than we’ve achieved for both the XR6 Turbo and the auto F6. Winterbottom knows he can do better, but we need to move on.

At a rapid rate, as it turns out. His laps in the F6 are as memorable for his car control as their speed. There’s no doubting the F6’s potency, nor the sledgehammer hit as boost arrives. The circuit is viewed through side windows as he struggles to put power down out of corners, and we’re airborne over the ripple strips exiting the back straight kink as the turbo delivers its rush.

“I can notice when the boost kicks in, that’s when it’s breaking traction. It’s more about getting the car straight to put the power down,” Winterbottom confirms. “Definitely a fun car to drive, but you’ve got to have it reasonably straight before you put down the throttle.”

His first lap is a 1:08.7, second time round he improves to a 1:08.5. The advantage over the GTS is only a few tenths and that obviously rankles. He requests a third unofficial lap and drives the car noticeably straighter for a 1:07.9.

All that’s left is for the Holden man to drive the Ford. A restrained flying lap produces 1:09.97 and some conservative commentary.

“They’re two very different cars. The turbo adds another area you have to focus on; you’ve got take into account when the boost is going to come in, what gear you use where, and so on. It keeps you on your toes, whereas the V8 has a very consistent throttle response.”

It’s a theme that Winterbottom concurs with – to an extent: “The GTS is very stable and throttle-down is not a problem. For a guy having his first couple of runs, it would be easier to drive than the F6.

“But for the experienced driver the F6 is more sideways and definitely more fun. You know you’re losing time, but you think, ‘whoa! I’m having a good time!’”

It’s a sentiment that’s hard to argue with. Buy the GTS if you love V8s and feel loud and proud doing it. But know that time has moved on. The F6 delivers a great engine and chassis, and the winning performance.

Wheels - Supercar showdown

dr Dunkel · 08-13-2008, 05:15 AM

What do we call these cars?

Monster · 08-13-2008, 05:19 AM

Thanks for the reply mate, I thought nobody will be interested in them. I don't quite understand your question but I will reply anyway. The HSV is Holden's performance division. The same car rebadged as Vaxhall in the UK and the less powerful version is badged Pontiac G8 in the US. The FPV is Ford Australia's performance division, the FPV version is based on the Ford Falcon and this car is manufactured and sold in Australia only.

VroomVroom · 08-13-2008, 05:37 AM

What awesome pictures and what awesome cars

I used to be a huge fan of Holden (not so much ford

)

Merc1 · 08-13-2008, 05:57 AM

I like them both. Killer looks and performance.

M

dr Dunkel · 08-13-2008, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monster

Thanks for the reply mate, I thought nobody will be interested in them. I don't quite understand your question but I will reply anyway. The HSV is Holden's performance division. The same car rebadged as Vaxhall in the UK and the less powerful version is badged Pontiac G8 in the US. The FPV is Ford Australia's performance division, the FPV version is based on the Ford Falcon and this car is manufactured and sold in Australia only.

Thanks! I thaught I recognized the Holden as a Vauxhall Monaro.

Monster · 08-13-2008, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc1

I like them both. Killer looks and performance.

M

You guys will probably get the HSV GTS as the Pontiac G8 GXP, not sure if the Pontiac will have the magnetic ride control as standard or optional extra.

Merc1 · 08-13-2008, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monster

You guys will probably get the HSV GTS as the Pontiac G8 GXP, not sure if the Pontiac will have the magnetic ride control as standard or optional extra.

Yes, but we're only getting about 400hp and no magnetic ride control.

M

Monster · 08-13-2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc1

Yes, but we're only getting about 400hp and no magnetic ride control.

M

Strange, maybe GM is saving them til later on, how much are they selling the top spec G8 for in US?

Merc1 · 08-13-2008, 07:23 AM

Right now they're in the low 30K range, a roaring bargain for a 362hp, V8, RWD sedan.

The GXP is going to be around 40K I think.

M

Monster · 08-13-2008, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc1

Right now they're in the low 30K range, a roaring bargain for a 362hp, V8, RWD sedan.

The GXP is going to be around 40K I think.

M

The cars cost less than what we pay for in Australia, maybe it is because of economics of scale, the equivalent of a top spec G8 will cost around $44k here

Merc1 · 08-13-2008, 07:33 AM

Youch. They could never sell it here for that price.

M

Monster · 08-13-2008, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vroom_vroom

What awesome pictures and what awesome cars

I used to be a huge fan of Holden (not so much ford

)

It is something like tribal warfare down here, you are either a holden man or a ford man, I am not sure how things are in the UK, but yeah I am a Ford man

.

dr Dunkel · 08-13-2008, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc1

Right now they're in the low 30K range, a roaring bargain for a 362hp, V8, RWD sedan.

The GXP is going to be around 40K I think.

M

Wow, imagine that here in Europe. About €21k for that car!

08-13-2008, 05:15 AM	#2
dr Dunkel Global Moderator Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sweden Garage: 2009 MINI Cooper S Posts: 6,582 Thanks: 3,686 Thanked 1,714 Times in 1,084 Posts	Re: Wheels: Ford FPV F6 v HSV GTS (Australian Performance car show down) What do we call these cars? __________________ Edmunds - Insideline We love a giant killer because it makes great headlines and there's always pressure to deliver an upset.

08-13-2008, 05:19 AM	#3
Monster Moderator Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 4,907 Thanks: 2,108 Thanked 3,212 Times in 1,447 Posts	Re: Wheels: Ford FPV F6 v HSV GTS (Australian Performance car show down) Thanks for the reply mate, I thought nobody will be interested in them. I don't quite understand your question but I will reply anyway. The HSV is Holden's performance division. The same car rebadged as Vaxhall in the UK and the less powerful version is badged Pontiac G8 in the US. The FPV is Ford Australia's performance division, the FPV version is based on the Ford Falcon and this car is manufactured and sold in Australia only. __________________ Now officially an engineer

08-13-2008, 05:37 AM	#4
VroomVroom Journeyman Join Date: Jun 2007 AKA: vroom_vroom Location: England Garage: Seat Arosa Posts: 5,267 Thanks: 5,439 Thanked 1,824 Times in 1,161 Posts	Re: Wheels: Ford FPV F6 v HSV GTS (Australian Performance car show down) What awesome pictures and what awesome cars I used to be a huge fan of Holden (not so much ford) __________________ Audi - Always Leads, Never Follows.

08-13-2008, 05:57 AM	#5
Merc1 Contributor Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Plano, TX USA Garage: 2003 Mercedes-Benz CLK430 Cabriolet Posts: 17,078 Thanks: 6,062 Thanked 10,601 Times in 4,429 Posts	Re: Wheels: Ford FPV F6 v HSV GTS (Australian Performance car show down) I like them both. Killer looks and performance. M __________________ *Merc1 Allstars: SLS, SL63, S65, E63, CL63, R8 5.2, S5, LP560, LP670, M3, 550i, 750i, Mulsne, Brook, DBS, GT500, GT S, 911, X6M, Z4, VYR GS, XFR, XKR, ZR1, CC, GTI, CTSV, 458i, 599.*

08-13-2008, 07:23 AM	#10
Merc1 Contributor Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Plano, TX USA Garage: 2003 Mercedes-Benz CLK430 Cabriolet Posts: 17,078 Thanks: 6,062 Thanked 10,601 Times in 4,429 Posts	Re: Wheels: Ford FPV F6 v HSV GTS (Australian Performance car show down) Right now they're in the low 30K range, a roaring bargain for a 362hp, V8, RWD sedan. The GXP is going to be around 40K I think. M __________________ *Merc1 Allstars: SLS, SL63, S65, E63, CL63, R8 5.2, S5, LP560, LP670, M3, 550i, 750i, Mulsne, Brook, DBS, GT500, GT S, 911, X6M, Z4, VYR GS, XFR, XKR, ZR1, CC, GTI, CTSV, 458i, 599.*

08-13-2008, 07:33 AM	#12
Merc1 Contributor Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Plano, TX USA Garage: 2003 Mercedes-Benz CLK430 Cabriolet Posts: 17,078 Thanks: 6,062 Thanked 10,601 Times in 4,429 Posts	Re: Wheels: Ford FPV F6 v HSV GTS (Australian Performance car show down) Youch. They could never sell it here for that price. M __________________ *Merc1 Allstars: SLS, SL63, S65, E63, CL63, R8 5.2, S5, LP560, LP670, M3, 550i, 750i, Mulsne, Brook, DBS, GT500, GT S, 911, X6M, Z4, VYR GS, XFR, XKR, ZR1, CC, GTI, CTSV, 458i, 599.*

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Wheels: Ford FPV F6 v HSV GTS (Australian Performance car show down)