German Car Forum

Wait, whut?

http://www.germancarforum.com/europea...tml#post284534

And this means what? Proves what? A magazine can do as they please. I don't know where you are, but come to the U.S. see if you see such a thing.

Again, what is the point of showing that? Fun for a day in someone else's car, not my own.


M

What are you, a cop? Only a cop would care about such things. I'd imagine it's easy to light up the tires on any of these RWD cars w/o even really trying.

Dude, look at what your wrote:
"they want a convertible to go along with that performance"
And now you are switching it around. As you would, otherwise your argument wouldn't make any sense. People in the market for simply for a convertible first and foremost generally don't buy these cars.

It's not lost on the convertible. It's still there whether you like it or not.
That convertibles are bought for top down driving does not obviate the fact that many are in fact used in rainy conditions, nor does it obviate the fact that some are better in these conditions than others.


Again, where did I say is the reason for buying a convertible? Please point this out for all to see.
Like I already said, it's not about conditions that require your top down 365/24/7. Just that in some situations, it's better to have the security of AWD. It's good to have it there. For example, Boulder, Colorado and Lake Tahoe are sometimes (not all the time) snowy and cold. Yet convertibles are still popular there; perhaps affluence has something to do with it but whatever. In late fall and early spring where there is not completely snowy conditions but the sun is still strong, the convertible is not wasted here.


Why would you ever have to clean the top?? It's stowed all the time, remember? It would never get dirty! Every single waking moment of the SL's life, it's top is always stowed. Always. How do I know this? Because it's a convertible, and you told me...

I know a folding hardtop is an advantage. I already said it up there?
However, YOU, cannot use this as a reason for the SL's versatility, because the SL is bought only for warm, sunny days.



Yes, so now the pictures are stupid. LOL
I never said convertibles were bought for all-weather capability, so how you continue on in this line of reasoning is curious to say the least.

And 500 hp is needed by the majority of convertible buyers?? Please. The majority of people never max out the cargo capacity of their cars. Does that make cargo capacity irrelevant? The majority of M3/C63 owners will never take their cars on the track. Does that make the performance engineering behind them irrelevant? Of course not.
And your comment about the lack of AWD convertibles in the market is ridiculous (ignoring the fact that relatively speaking such cars have been on the market for only a short time). That's like saying if RWD is so great, why doesn't VW use it. Or if FWD is so great, why doesn't BMW use it? Different strokes for different folks, and you have cars fit for a different purpose; otherwise (by your reasoning) every single car on the face of the planet would be more or less the same.

It proves that you "love" absurdity.
I have seen such a thing. In Lake Tahoe. And Reno. Haven't been to Boulder, but I'd imagine it happens there too.

Obviously, people don't buy a Gallardo or Turbo or C4S in order to drive it in the snow (never said they did, though you seem to think I did), but it happens. Who are you to deny such a fact?

Nope. Gee is it really? Gosh. Yet and still this means what? Nothing.


What part of this can't you understand? NO ONE HERE IS SAYING THAT THE 911 TURBO CABRIOLET'S AWD SYSTEM MAKES IT BETTER IN RAINY CONDITIONS. POINT IS THAT I PERSONALLY DON'T CARE AND THE OTHER CARS HERE AREN'T TERRIBLE IN THE RAIN, NOR DO MOST PEOPLE TRY TO PERFORM HEROICS IN THE RAIN TO PROVE AWD PROWESS IN A CONVERTIBLE.

Again see above. Turn over the record.



Again more nonsense. You know full well your comment here is untrue and utterly ridiculous.


More of the same. Common sense goes out the window here.


Yet you keep talking about how AWD on the Porsche makes it more versatile and what not. Being more capable in all weather conditions is part of your argument, better dry road handling is the other. One of these advantages is matterless in a convertible. I love PICS of the Bentley in the snow, not the thought of me driving in the snow with my top down on my own car. Must everything be explained to the 9th degree?


Who said it does? I clearly stated that it isn't needed on a convertible and it typically doesn't enter into the buying decision of a convertible buyer. When snow falls the 911 needs winter tires just like the rest unless you want to be wreckless and drive in the snow with summer tires. Not to mention it is dangerous. Oh wait, let me guess if "done properly" it will ok? Right?

As is your angle about them being oh so superior when driven in condition that they aren't primarily used in. Like a SL, or the other cars here can't cope with a wet road or snow (with proper tires). Equally ridiculous. Audi and Porsche have had AWD convertibles on the market for a number of years now, yet no one else has bothered to enter either segment. Why? It isn't a priority, at least not yet.

Exactly and I chose the SL, you choose the 911. I'm not changing my choice or my reasons for not picking the 911 or my reasons for picking the SL. Not gonna happen so you're wasting your time here.

M

It proves that you don't see a Bentley in such a manner everyday and seeing such was a rare treat. Doesn't mean I want to duplicate the experience in a SL or CLK. Arguing back and forth with you proves I love absurdity.

When did I "deny" the fact that people drive a Gallardo or something in the snow? Again, get it right. I said that it is riduclous and possibly dangerous on the wrong tires.

What do you want to happen here? You want me to change my vote to the 911 instead of the SL? There isn't anything else to be gained here.

M

Terrible in the rain? I never said they are terrible in the rain. Go back and point out exactly where I said they were terrible in the rain. (And if you can't find it, and you won't, why even bring it up?)
None of that negates the versatility.

So tell me: Why would you ever even need to clean the top? Why would it ever even get dirty? It's a convertible; the top should never be up. Otherwise, you've wasted a perfectly good car.


Again, that is your own misgiving. Just because you're too pansy () doesn't mean other people don't do it, or that they're "absurd" for doing it. Hell, there are Miata and BMW meets (yes, here in the US) where owners gather for the expressed purpose of driving up into the mountains to drive into the snow. That's not absurd. That's called being more of a carnut than most. I think you're blowing it all out of proportion because most cars nowadays have perfectly adequate heaters (and seat heaters too), so it's not all that extreme.

Very few convertible buyers will ever entertain the thought of buying an AMG/M/Aston/Turbo. 500 hp isn't typicaly entered into the buying decision of a convertible buyer. So since these are performance convertibles, it only stands to reason that we evaluate them on their relative merits outside of merely being top-down cars. One of these merits is the ability to put down more of that power more of the time.


20 years ago, people probably would've scoffed at a Porsche that was AWD and a convertible. Like I said these are relatively new automobiles, considering the history of the automobile. Hell, 20 years ago, some people thought Audi would be dead in America.
Just because it's not a priority negates the versatility how? Oh that's right. It doesn't.

Again, you are wrong. I'm not asking you to change your choice. I already knew before going in you'd pick the SL, and I know you love it, so I wouldn't ask you to change your choice even if you could. I couldn't care less about the results of this poll. I'm just discussing here. Like I said, I already picked the Aston. But I readily accept that it's not the most versatile here, not by a long shot.

Because you keep seeming to think that I feel people buy AWD cars for their AWD capabilities, oblivious to the fact that there could be other compelling reasons to buy them, and that AWD is just the icing on the cake. Only now, after repeating myself, do you seem to be getting the point.
It's absurd to think I'd want anyone to change their vote. I'm just explaining why I think the Porsche is more versatile or otherwise the more complete package (and listed several other reasons in support of this). If you want to ignore it, that's your choice. But the versatility is there whether you choose to ignore it or not.

I think maybe you two should agree to disagree and move on...

Wow, such an argument...

IMO, if Porsche makes its Turbo AWD, it's because Porsche thinks it is an advantage, and that there are customers wanting that.
If Mercedes makes its SL RWD, it's because they think it's what customers want and that AWD is not needed.

Different cars, different customers. Different opinions. Some will argue the folding roof makes the SL more versatile or its auto/sequential gearbox, or its supsension, some will argue the AWD makes the Porsche more versatile, some will argue the four seats of the Porsche or M6 make them more versatile, I mean, there is no problem with that.


Each car here is different from the other, and it's perfectly fine. They all have their advantages and disadvantages, so now you two made your respective points, which both are valuable. I think there's no need to go further in that direction, don't you?

I think so too. I'm done here.

You iplied it. Like the others can't be driven with any gusto in the rain without falling off the road. You're whole ridiculous argument was that the Porsche was better in the inclement weather or a rain slicked road. READ YOUR OWN POSTS if you want the proof.

Where did I say that top should never be up. Never said that. AGAIN, the premise for a convertible is summer, top down driving weather. Of course you have to let the top up at times. Again you're ignoring common sense for the sake of your feeble argument.


Now there is an intelligent possition if there ever was one. Brilliant. Hell I don't care about BMW and Miata meets. One meet to do such a thing is a just that event, not an everyday thing. Why is that so hard for you to grasp. You just proved my point.

True, they are performance convertibles. The ridiculous part of your statement here is that "put the power down more of the time", what the hell does that mean? The other cars here can't put their power down? Now at the beginning of this same post you said that you didn't say that about them being terrible in the rain, yet here you imply that they can't put their power down? NOW WHICH IS IT? EITHER THAN CAN OR THEY CAN'T. ON A DRY ROAD NONE OF THESE CARS ARE TRACTION CHALLENGED! A SL65 YES, BUT NOT A SL63. IF THE WEATHER IS BAD WHAT THE HELL ARE DOING TRYING TO "PUT THE POWER DOWN" IN A CONVERTIBLE ANYWAY? YOUR ARGUMENT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.



And this has what to do with anything? NOTHING.


Again, nothing pertaining to anything here.



Very well then, next time we'll open a versatile convertible thread and you can vote for the Porsche.


M

Why would anyone buy an AWD version of the same car that can be had in RWD if AWD isn't the reason? You think people don't buy AWD cars for their AWD capabilities?????????????? WTH? Makes absolutely no sense. If that were the case then BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche wouldn't offer them. I don't want a 4Matic Benz or a Xi BMW because the badge looks better! AWD is the only difference between a RWD version of any of these cars and AWD is THE reason why people buy a 335xi over a 335i or a E550 4Matic over a E550!! I can't believe anyone in the known world thinks this! Why the hell would a buy an AWD version of a car when a RWD version is lighter, drinks less gas and has less drivetrain components to worry about over time? I'd buy AWD for its incresed capability!!!!!!!!!!!
Again, for the Trillionith time.....I know the Porsche is more versatile car, never said it wasn't. I agreed with you about 500 posts ago that it was! What you don't grasp is that I simply don't see where it matters in a convertible. If were talking about a 911 Turbo Coupe vs a Z06 or the GT-R then yes AWD becomes a huge factor because these more of track stars than a convertible is. A convertible buyer by nature isn't looking for the ultimate in grip, cornering, acceleration and foul weather capability, otherwise he wouldn't be buying a convertible!

All of this and you didn't even vote for the Porsche. Utterly ridiculous.

M

Marcus, Guibo as already said he isnt going to argue about this anymore. I think you should do the same. The whole debate is getting over the top.