German Car Forum

all cars are invited, its the owners that need to say hi.

Im just back from a M5board.com event and let me give you a warning. Watch out for stage 2 335i in a race, if M6 can be surprised than you can be sure of that a C63 wont be superior, those tuned 335i are deadly. I say no more, let the videos speak for themselves.

I honestly believe this argument is becoming rather redundant/moot. No longer are Mercedes and Audi behind in this field and no longer is BMW the absolute winner. Yes BMW has better handling still and its still the more "fun" car but everyone crying about that Mercedes and Audi being crap or even the other way round is rather pointless. The only thing that can be said objectively is that you don't like the looks of some particular car and that they're utter crap (which is again pushing it since the M3 looks gorgeous and the C63 looks brutal). The handling characteristics, drivetrain, chassis, etc. seem perfect for each car and we should be happy that everyone has three different choices and its not even compromising if you choose one over the other.

This is just one test and there will be thousands others where the Merc will be the winner and another thousand where the M3 reigns supreme. People should just grow up and stop fighting over how XYZ car won in this one comparo so MY brand > YOUR brand.

/rant

About the test, I've always taken C&D's 0-60 times with a grain of salt because they always have the best 0-60 times and are almost always rather completely unrealistic which makes me believe they're probably taking their times downhill. and Kudos to the M3 for taking a win.

Whos fighting? Or ranting?

Couldn't agree more with you. This segment has gone mainstream (and in no small part cause of previous M3's sales success) and most premium manufacturers (including Lexus) has a presence in this segment now. And just like you won't find much between a vanilla 3er, C, A4 and IS, you won't find much difference in this segment either. I think, going forward, CSL/BS/<what ever Audi comes up with> is going to be the new special versions of these cars for the demanding few.

They use the brake-torque method, which of course suits a Benz much better than most.

M

Rik, turn off the fanboy mode and re-read my last post. This is the FIRST time the C-AMG car may be SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the M3 in terms of acceleration (assuming the difference in acceleration times between the C63 and M3 is real).

And yes, the M3 won this comparison. It appears to be the better track weapon AND daily driver in terms of comfort. Like I said before, I probably prefer the M3 over the C63 for personal reaons. All I'm saying is the C63 will likely win most street encounters with the M3 because of its accelerating superiority. And for 95% of people, the street is the only place these cars will be driven on. And even on a track, I doubt there will be a huge difference in laptimes. In fact, I suspect that the average non-pro driver on the track will be faster in a C63 than the M3 because the AMG car is easier to drive fast. Why do I say that?.......because I've passed E46 M3's with my W203 C55 on the track (the only E46 M3's that have passed me were modified ones or ones with R-compound tires).

Once you include modified cars, it's a whole different ball game. I doubt a stock E92 M3 will out accelerate the W204 C63.

The 335i is a super fast car if properly modified because it's so easy to increase boost on the turbos.

I dont care much about that and I dont care if a tuned 335i does the same to a M3. Yesterday I drove the new M3. So what if C63 is faster. Doesnt make the M3 a slow car, in fact it's more than 95% of the population can handle. The car is so well balanced and easy to control, even my old grandmother can drive fast with the new M3. I broke the speedlimit several times yesterday, 180km/h in third gear and if the police gets you, your license is gone.

There is tons of grip and you can take a bend faster than you thought what was possible. You can drive superfast without anything goes wrong, the car so wellbalanced and it's so easy to control. The new M3 is orgasmic.
I'm not worried if C63 beats you becuase there will always be someone faster than you. Heck, if I was worried to get beaten, well, a tuned Toyota Supra can cure that.

For me driving is more than just a straightline, its the total package that matters. M3 offer good comfort and is just as easy to live with as a 335i, in fact the suspension is better than a 335i thanks to the adjustable suspension.
For the price of the M3 its hard to find another car that do so much great as the M3 does for you. No longer can you use the excuse that the M3 is to harsh for you to live with. Top on that you mix the M3 with a dose of acceleration, tons of grip and tons of driving pleasure. And let's not forget, the M3 is beautiful car to look at too.

It's really that good!


So, M3 or a C63? which is the best? None I would say, they are both good. Highreeving concept or big block concept? it comes down to details which one you choose and you cant go wrong with neither of them.

Oh, with the new DCT gearbox the M3 will get even better, Im sure of it.

With track driving, the variable of driver skill plays a larger role; I've seen relatively mundane cars that shouldn't have stood a chance against more exotic machinery...and yet they have.
On a perfectly smooth track, the new C AMG might be easier to drive fast. But throw in some bumpy corners and that average non-pro driver might feel more comfortable at the limit with the more supple M3.

These figures surprised me quite a bit. With all the fuss about the M3 suddenly having gotten fat and losing the plot, I'm surprised more isn't made about the C-Class AMG's considerably higher weight gain.
Also surprising:
Steering Feel / Handling / Ride ratings
M3: 5 / 10 / 9
C63: 4 / 8 / 6
RS4: 4 / 8 / 9
The Audi is still impressively competitive among this newer group.

I agree the 4-door M3 would be a more appropriate competitor to these two. The points it would lose in performance would probably be made up in points gained for better rear-seat/trunk space. And granted, this is only one result of many more to come.

Rik, don't even think about provoking a war here.

Car and Driver is known to also love BMWs to death. I am not saying that the M3 didn't deserve the win, but there are tons of factors, not only the capabilities and performance of the car, that decide the outcome. One of them is editor opinion.


"Lost" is such a strong word. I don't think the C63 AMG "lost" to the M3, nor did the RS4 in that sense. Besides, the M3 finished with 212 points, the Mercedes with 205 and the Audi with 201. Overall it was pretty close actually.

I am provoking a war because I'm tempering the MB-fanboys spirits here by almost taking this second place as a victory? By pointing out that straight line performance by an AMG has always been the strong point and that it's exactly everything but straightline performance what makes an M3 an M3. If that is provoking a war, well than close the forum because it's full of warseeking members

There's no need to do this. Some people might take it the wrong way and then we have a flame war here. So please, no talk about Mercedes or Audi fans in this thread.


AMG has a history of producing cars that handle dating back to the 300SEL 6.3, which won at Spa in 1971 (yes, it actually handled...). The only thing is that BMW M's have always handled better. Straight-line performance is a side-effect of big displacement and powerful engines and it is helpful for one of the primary environments of AMG cars: the Autobahn.

it's a test from an M against an AMG against an RS model, I'm sorry but what do you expect. If this is not possible here to have such a disussion, it isn't possible anywhere. It's ok for pro-AMG guys to ask questions like what M3 fans will think of next to defend their cars and when someone actually responds, he gets flamed for starting a war?????




Yeah, that's a way of putting it, ignoring 0-60 has been the main focus from amg marketing since years and also the main strong point many AMG guys point out, even in this thread.

what is the argument here?
i cant keep track..

Several things to consider:
- it was a class victory and overall 2nd place
- Spa back then was a different track, the old version of the track was much longer and without the chicanes ( making it the fastest track on the F1 circus and a speed track unlike handling tracks like Monaco and the Ring witch had everything)
- it was a 24h endurance race, and the AMG's reliability played the decisive part, as both the BMW brigade, one of the Ford Capris and Chevy Camaro, all race favorites, dropped out all while being in front of the AMG SEL.

not forgetting it was bloody 1971

How many here has actually driven all three cars ?

Amazing how many get so upset becuase of carreviews. People are forgetting their own personal opinions. Make your own decision instead of arguing about some numbers or text on a piece of paper.
Noone can tell you what car is the best so that you have to decide on your own and not based on carjournalists opinions, they are humans too and they have no clue what car is right for you.

Take it from someone like me that driven both RS4 and the new M3, both are great cars in their own way and I cant see that C63 nor IS-F to be much worse. In the end it's the little things that decide what you buy.

Now, can we move on people.

This argument is so old and boring

which one?

There's nothing wrong with discussions with other fans etc. However one of your last sentences struck me a bit as "provocative". If I see an AMG or RS fan misbehaving, I'll warn them too. If I've been to harsh I'll apologize, but please keep it clean.




What are you trying to say? That AMG simply built big engines for the sake of power and didn't "care" about the acceleration aspect? Oh please...

JustMe, take it easy. I don't doubt a word you are saying about the M3. I'm sure it's a GREAT handling car and very fast in a straight line too. In the end I think you agree with me that the C63 is likely faster than the M3 in a straight line (by a much larger margin than the previous C32/C55 was over the E46 M3). Obviously, that is not important to you and that is perfectly fine. (It's not that important to me either because its' easy now to lose your car in Toronto if you are caught racing or speeding >50km/h over the speed limit). But I think my point still holds: for the majority of drivers on the streets, it is far more likely that the C63 will be the faster car (maybe by a significant margin). For some people, that may be important when you're spending so much money on a performance car.

And many BMW owners value straight line speed. Just look at M5board, where there is constant pride in the fact that the M5 is faster than the E55/E63 at high speeds (well above any speed limits anywhere in the world). M5board loves doing straight line runs in their airfield competitions. Look at E90post where tuned 335i's blowing away other cars in a straight line contest is a constant source of pride. When you have a car that can out-accelerate another, that is the most basic and easiest way to brag about the "performance" of a car for many people.

Frankly, unless you drive on a track, any superiority one car has over another in terms of handling is mute and for bragging rights only. It's not like you're comparing a M3 to a Toyota Echo where you'll corner SO much faster on everyday streets.

As a guy who has tracked his car a few times now, I really appreciate the joys of driving a car fast in a straight line AND turning at or close to the limit.....it's so much fun. But I'm in the minority, as most people will never drive their cars this way. For most people, straight line speed or taking a curvy on-ramp on everyday roads are the primary ways they will get their thrills.

Ultimately, preference for the brand and styling/image will also play a big part in people's choices, because all 3 cars in question are way more than any person really needs for everyday driving.

I'm taking it easy ???

Majority of the owners will rarely race on the streets anyway, they just want show that they can buy the car and take it to work, shopping, travelling or visiting friends or want a moment of fun. You dont pick a C63 becuase you want to beat M3 drivers on the streets (or the other way around). Both has enough acceleration for majority of the people.
I prefer the highreeving concept over torque, if it was the later that was more important than I buy myself a diesel also I dont mind changing gears more often than with a torque engine, I'm not lazy you know

Remember, there will always be faster car out there that is faster than you and you are just a fool if you think you are unbeatable.

M5board and their event, more people will participate if its straightline and not a track test. You dont need to be good to accelerate but you need to be good to go fast around a track. So its less risk to damage a car in straightline than on a track.

BTW a CLK63 was invited but he never showed up.


PS 335i is the poor mans M3

In one test they say that if the M3 driver isnt on top of his heel and toe game..he wouldnt even know wich way the C63 went..

I guess that summs it up...

When did I say that I (or anybody) was "unbeatable"? I just said that the C63 will likely beat the M3 on everyday roads. And I bet the next RS4 will likely beat the C63 in a few years time.