German Car Forum

Nice posts BMWFREAK and Snake. Totally agree with you. And Mirage, thanks for pointing out some of the sharing between the 2. For sure the parts sharing in the VAG extends very far. For goodness sakes, the last TT sat on a VW golf platform and arguably was a lesser car for it.

BMWFREAK, I have no problem with Lexus innovating etc. What I find annoying is when they clearly have copied/adopted an innovation but try to pass it off as their own doing, and as being the first manufacturer to even have the innovation. That to me is LAME and missleading. Its a bit like Hyundai claiming they invented the airbag simply becuase its located differently to where MB, the inventor of this technology, places them in the vehicle.

Im totally with you Snake when you say who really cares about the companies structure, as long as the products are sufficiently different and special.

Can I ask a question just to give people here something to think about.. it's a bit simplified but still relevant.
All this talk of Lexus being a luxo-Toyota, is that not the same as say an RS4 being a hotted-up A4? I mean, Lexus is Toyota's luxury division, while RS is Audi's performance division. (We can swap the RS4/A4 example with M5/5er or E63/Eclass or what have you). .. But isn't the concept the same ? Ofcourse the end results differ considerable because you can tell an RS4 is a hotted-up A4 whereas you can't say from appearances that the Lexus GS is a luxo-Camry.

But same principles or not ?

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It's Marketing. ... I also used to get peeved off when Lexus would imply such a claim (because they don't actually say they invented it, but rather imply it via ads) but you just have to understand that rivalry is intense and that it's not just about promoting your own brand, but also nullifying any advantages/features your competitors have over you, especially in the premium car segment.
It's more important to do this in the premium car market because buyers aren't overly concerned about pricing, but rather what features/options they would like to have. If you were buying a Camry or something, then price might be more of an influencing factor, but the luxury segment very rarely focuses on price as a competitive advantage.

Yes it's frustrating, and yes it is definately misleading, but in the end it comes back to 'caveat emptor’ (Latin for Buyer beware). Marketing's all about making up a story/image, fluffing up your good points and trying as best you can to hide your bad points.
Now whenever I see an ad where one manufacturer is claiming innovation over a certain technology and I know that tech' has already been introduced by another manufacturer, .. well, I just laugh a little.

Again, it's Marketing, ... and no one said marketing had to be fair or honest. (I know, I'm cold hearted aren't I )

Very true BeemerBoi, and it is a marketing reality! But from the advertising I've seen each of the Germans have displayed restraint and executed respect for the inovations of the others in press material and advertising, whereas Lexus has often done the complete opposite. You don't see AUDI and BMW claiming they were the first with radar guided cruise control. Lexus on the other hand are likely to even claim they invented the radar. lol

Hahaha.. yeh, you're probably right.. but I guess that's just how Lexus do it.

You have to remember, BMW, Audi and MB are all about innovation. Ofcourse MB has been long known for innovation.. I mean come on, they invented the car (but also other important safety innovations), Audi's slogan "Vorsprung Durch Technik" is about technology and continual innovation, and BMW prides itself on innovative technologies as well as design (as seen by the E65 7er which was a technological tour-de-force as well as innovative design).

So the thing is, MB, Audi and BMW have already spent large amounts of marketing dollars establishing that innovative image (which is further added by Country of Origin associations), whereas on the other hand, Lexus is only beginning to create an 'innovative' image, and what better way to do that than to simply piggy-back on the Germans' new technology.

But don't think that Lexus is not technologically innovative company, I mean, they (referring to Lexus/Toyota) are years ahead of the German's in Hybrid engine technology. Now many of the Lexus nay-sayers will say "well that's just one innovation that they've made'. It aint about the number of innovations, it's about the importance/significance of the innovation, and there's no doubt that hybrid engines are very important to the future of the motor industry.


... and also, just on a side note, you can be as innovative, creative, and daring as you want, but if you're not getting the sales, profits and market share you're not doing well. Toyota/Lexus management and internal processes and culture is unbelievably effective and successful.

lol american automotive adverts are some of the most cheesy things Ive ever seen on T.V. And theyre all so similiar, and complete bullshit.

Mr. Mercedes thanks for responding. I must say though that I do not recollect Lexus every "claiming" to have invented something. However, you do see them speak about it as if it is implied that they had something to do with it. If you agree with the previous statement then you have completely overlooked that BMW and Audi do the same. Bosh created the traction control system period. BMW went ahead and called id Dynamic Stability Control (DSC). They would talk about DSC as if it was their creation and how much it made a difference in BMW's than in other cars. To top it off they would go against volvo's and Audi's, in their own marketting videos to attempt to debunk the traction control on these cars. Audi has done the same and so have others.

My point here is that marketing and capital make a big difference. Plastic surgery is done my many different doctors. You can't go to the original plastic surgeon because he may not be alive anymore or in any case there are better plastic sergeons out there. So, even though a car company may be behind something doesn't necessarily mean that another car company cannot make it better.

yea your right. Hey a voice of reason is good, its better than being the voice of insanity which is the one i play!

haha thats true lol. As far as I can tell or have seen the German auto makers dont attempt to take the Intellectual property of their competitors by marketing each others innovations as their own. Lexus doesnt seem to understand the concept of IP, which is why their adds bug the hell out of me. Interesting discussion..

I had no idea BMW actually went after Audi and Volvo in their advertising of DSC. At least they weren't stupid enough to go after Benz. If I recollect correctly Bosch worked closely with MB to create traction control, and its first debuted on the CL right?

Still, In Australia at least, the Germans have not tried to discredit each other in their marketing, which is more than can be said for Lexus. This is not to say Lexus is not an innovative company, because the new LS demonstrates clearly they are are. Their marketing should focus on what innovations they truly did bring to the table.

You may not be able to go to the first plastic surgeon, but certainly you wouldnt go to a quack claiming he invented plastic surgery right?

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I think car ads in general are becoming overly difficult to understand. I prefer simple "to the point" ads, like those from Volkswagen, and they even have humor in it. VW also makes funny and effective television ads IMO.

Nein.

Well i can understand some words but only basic stuff.

Good reply.

I can speak a little bit of Greek.

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