German Car Forum

I agree Yannis ..we must also realize that the most fundamental difference between Lexus and its competitors is Lexus was conceived in a boardroom ....it is as much an exercise in exemplary marketing as it is in excellent engineering -- DCX could learn a thing or two from Lexus, with regards to Maybach.

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Cadillac -- regardless of whether they are technically better or inferior to Lexus, are still stronger brands in the minds of millions of consumers.

However, I must commend Toyota for doing their homework; they understand the psyche of the American market inside-out -- unlike VAG with the Phaeton. The Europeans will take a little more time, but Lexus are certainly a serious threat to the Germans ...Mercedes and BMW cannot afford to be complacent.

Wow a debate about Lexus! Should I or shouldn't I?

M

You should! Get 'em!

I agree 100%.

I also don't understand why Top Secret accuses me of not liking Japanese , French and American cars (with a few exceptions). If i liked them then it would make no sense to be in a forum called German Car Forum.

I'm sorry Yannis but I have to agree with TS. If there was a Lexus badge on an A8, my bet would be that you wouldn't like it. Sure this is German Car Forum but still, some respect has to be given to Lexus.

Look, I'm going to come out and say that Lexus is pretty far down my list after German cars (mostly because I don't really like their styling. New ones aren't as bad). But if we for a moment stop thinking about the brand itself, and think of the cars, are they really that inferior to the Germans (if inferior at all)? I don't think so, I really don't. Sure brand is important, but sometimes you have to see past the marketing and what not and look at the product.

Btw, TS, Pagani is an excellent example. It doesn't matter how many cars they sell. They came out of nowhere. Now they are world famous. DIfferent scale I guess, same idea.

Lexus could had never made a car like the A8 (or S class or 7 series) because making such a car is not a matter of effort or money spend. It's also about long standing tradition in excellence and heritage which they don't have.

Great discussion guys. Maybe I should throw in my two cents' worth...

I live in Finland. In Finland, we have relatively long distances between towns and cities and long, cold winters. What all that means is that people want to have reliable cars that they can trust to take them from A to B and back even in the middle of winter. So it's hardly a surprise that Toyota is the most popular brand here, with the Corolla, Avensis and RAV4 being the most popular cars in their respective classes. Toyotas are in very high demand in the used car market as well, due to their reliability and longevity. Other Japanese brands are (or at least have been) quite popular, too. Furthermore, Finns are generally speaking not as brand conscious as most Europeans. So, you'd think that Lexus would be doing rather well here, now wouldn't you? Well, think again.

It seems that luxury car buyers are interested in other qualities besides reliability, because while Lexus sales are higher than ever, they're still low enough to make the brand a rare sight on the roads here - unlike Merc, BMW and Audi which are everywhere. Pricing is not the issue here, and neither is advertising. Yet, there is something that makes most luxury car buyers go for the traditional brands. Maybe it's the looks - in my eyes Lexus is still struggling to come up with a design identity of its own, or perhaps it's the philosophy of building excellent machines that are missing that important ingredient - personality.

In my eyes, Lexus has produced exactly one desirable model during its existance, and that's the original GS300. Of course the car has aged now but back in the day I used to think the design was quite impressive. Of course, it was not an in-house job...

I fail to see why I have been drawn into this debate when I haven't even said anything in the thread.

I am not a Toyota/Lexus Lover/fanatic. I love cars for cars, I love what each car maker brings to the table to improve the industry. So don't think that I am Toyota/Lexus fanatic because I defended them. I defended them because it is a naive comment to simply say "they are crap". No offence Yannis, but look past the end of your nose.

I could careless if a car company doesn't have history and heritage. In terms of sales, Lexus have proved in the US market that buyers simply don't hold history and heritage in the same regard as you. Yes its a niceity, but there isn't any rule to say they can't be good car makers. Oh and what about car makers that do have heritage and history and have bombed? like rover.

Lexus have increased competition which has forced the BMW/Audi/Merc to lower their prices considerably. Without Lexus, the Germans simply could have astronomical prices in non-european countries like New Zealand. This has allowed us everyday people to drive these cars everyday. This is part of the reason why I have the utmost respect for Lexus.

This is not to offend you but to remind you Yannis: Remember back in the old GCF days where Brian (creator/owner of GCF) outwardly said that he didn't hold your posts in as high regard as others due to you bias towards Audi. And Brian is arguably the biggest german car fanatic. Now this wasn't to attack your character, but to say "Yannis, stop being so narrow-minded and look at the wider picture". Did you not learn anything from that post? If you don't remember this then don't worry, but I've been around a LONG time (as have you).

I don't agree that Pagani is comparable with Lexus at all. Pagani is the product of inspiration, integrity, and one mans dream -- conceived with a single-minded ambition to create something unique and extraordinary, with an almost total disregard for the "realities" of the market. Lexus, on the other hand, is entirely the product of intensive market research, corporate-strategizing, and market reality....with the economic rewards for Toyota being the primary objective. Lexus is an excellent product ...but not a particularly inspired one.

To compare Pagani with Lexus, is to misunderstand both brands, and their intentions, greatly.

Funny that you mention Brian who closed our forum cause he was loosing money (at least that was the official excuse) and abandoned the whole "German Car Fans" idea by making the transvestite "World Car fans" site just to get more publicity and advertising money.
Of course i understand that he has to make money for a living from the site but at least i 'm an idealist (some may call me fanatic i don't care) who never made a single buck from the countless hours i preach about German superiority in this and every other forum i participated.

This is my opinion, BUT, if you said that Audi had a long tradition of making luxury automobiles 15 years ago, people would have laughed at you. That was MB's job, while BMW's made sporty cars. Audi was just kind of in the middle. But now look at how successful they are. I just don't see why heritage is the biggest factor here, because I think engineering is far more important. And heritage and engineering are two seperate paths.

So ok, Lexus doesn't have as much prestige as the Germans, especially in the Sclass, A8 and 7 series category, but that takes time. This is exactly what happened to the Phaeton. Great car, no way in hell anyone would buy it (brand name). Lexus suffers the same problem in Europe.
You cannot sit here and tell me that the Phaeton was a mediocre car, as any Lexus.

It's one thing to be making money, but it's a whole other thing to be LOSING money from a forum. I'm sorry, but I doubt that you would agree to spend the time and the money.

I think you should give a little respect here. Brian single-handedly created the spirit to the original GCF forum and its successors. Without the GCF forums this forum might not exist and a great number of people from this forum would not be part of it.

Secondly have you thought for a moment that Brian didn't actually 'sell-out' the German Car Fans brand to World Car Fans, because maybe, just maybe, he is a car-fanatic that likes ALL cars, and is not narrow-minded enough to think that German cars are the only cars on this planet. I myself consider Brian to be the biggest car fan of all of us here, since he has dedicated his career to developing and maintaining a website devoted to them. It is a well known fact he had another successful career that earned him the money to live comfortably, but he quit that to pursue the WCF website - now that is dedication. Of course I don't know what your career is, but can you tell me that your career is even in the automotive industry?

Futhermore do you honestly believe that the Germans are perfect in every aspect of car design? I for one would put up my hand to say that are definitely not. I would say they are among the best in the world. But I'm also the first person to tell you that the Japanese are better in manufacturing and the Italians are better at putting in the 'passion' factor, whatever that might be. Putting it one way, if you are so narrow-minded to think that Germans are always the best, then you simply don't know anything about cars.

There is no such thing as "the best" in any aspect of our lives, at least objectively speaking but in every single segment there is at least one German car that comes as close as possible to being "the best" overall (for example 3 series or S class). Japanese cars have failed to achieve that.

BTW if i know something or anything about cars it's not for you to decide or anyone else. Generalization , insults and elitistic bahaviour just shows that you and Top Secret are in a diffucult position proving that you are right.

I really don't think that Gene or TS are being unreasonable at all. They are Lexus fanboys like you call them and neither am I. I personally love German cars, but I am open to other cars as well.

This has gone way off topic. But speaking of 'generalization', this whole thing started off by you saying that the Volvo S80 is better than any Lexus/Toyota on page 1 without any reasonable proof. Actually look at any post on the first page...

Yannis, you're being unreasonable - I think everyone who has read this thread has noticed that.

I can no longer go on with this idiotic debate, because of the attitude and behaviour you have shown in these types of situations. It's like talking to a brick wall with you, Yannis. Utterly, utterly pointless. We've had pages and pages of discussion about the competency of other car manufacturers, but, at the end of the day, your narrow-mindedness to cars prevents you from seeing the truth.

Wow Yannis, seems you've broken all the rules too!

Evidence 1 - Generalisation
Evidence 2 - Insults
Evidence 3 - Elitism
Good on you. Clearly Top Secret and I are going to have trouble convincing people, because after all you follow ALL the rules right?

I'm with Top Secrets - I give up. I honestly couldn't give a stuff trying to convince you. One thing I'm glad about though - that you don't head any carmaker. Because the arrogance you display would mean the company's inevitable demise. Thank heavens for that.

We can continue this discussion for ages and still we won't agree on anything so it's better for me to stop here.

On the other hand since this topic might be of some interest for other members i started a new thread in the pit section:

http://www.germancarforum.com/pit-general-discussion/6387-premium-power-secret-success-mercedes-benz-bmw-porsche-audi.html