Discussion in '911' started by ree, Oct 13, 2009.
996 = hate it!
The 996 Turbo got an update - PCM 2.0. There was no need to update more since the MY 2002 996 Carrera became PCM 2.0, the Turbo front and 3600 ccm (the Turbo already had 3600 ccm).
Regarding the latest engine updates: 987 Boxster and Cayman also became an update (DI, LSD, PCM 3.0). The 987 updates have nothing to do with the GT-R. Furthermore, the development of the current Turbo updates began long before the GT-R was released. Someone remembers the mysterious turbo engine block some years ago?
And the reason they tested a GTR?
All I know is Porsche was very lackadaisical about updating their cars before this and suddenly we see a spate of very drastic updates. Maybe it is coincidence and was always planned, but color me cynical, I think it has more to do with the new breed of competition (GTR, R8, AM). Not that there is anything wrong with it, far from it, it is fantastic that they are. Not sure why people find it offensive/unbelievable that Porsche reacts to competition.
New 911 Turbo laps 'Ring 10sec faster
The new 911 Turbo has slashed its predecessor’s Nurburgring lap time by ten seconds, completing a circuit in 7m 39sec.
Despite similar looks the latest 997 has been substantially updated over a two year program.
The old 3.6-litre engine has been ditched in favour of a more powerful direct-injected 3.8-litre version of Porsche’s classic flat six-cylinder running newly reworked twin variable vane turbochargers.
Power has increased by 20bhp, while the weight has been slashed by 25kg, giving it a power-to-weight ratio of 309bhp/tonne.
Porsche has timed both cars around the infamous ‘Ring and found the improvements knocked 10sec off the outgoing car’s 7m 49sec lap.
Earlier this year the Nissan GT-R bettered its own best time around the Nurburgring.
The GT-R has been mildly fettled since its launch, gaining five extra bhp, a revised dual-clutch gearbox, updated launch control and fettled suspension.
In the hands of Toshio Suzuki, a former Formula One driver, the car lapped the Nordschleife in 7m 27.56sec. Its previous record stood at 7m 29sec.
911 Turbo laps 'Ring 10sec faster - Autocar.co.uk
Excellent post. Agree 100%
I don't know what is so new about it? It's not like Porsche has never made FL:s or engine revisions before... The turbo models of the 930, the 964 and the 993 had them. On the 996 it was an option.
That said, the fact that there now is competition in the segment will of course influence the revisions.
There is no point in calling me a fanboy because I know I am one and so is every other member here who happily visits the forum 5-10 times a day.
Now when the obvious is out of the way I concur, Porsche does respond to competition and so does other manufacturers. But reaction doesn't happen over night. When a car is launched, the product plan is somewhat set in stone though there is still room for modifications. Despite that, when it comes to critical components such as engines and gearboxes it's very hard to respond to sudden "threats" as contracts for R&D, outsourcing and machinery have already been signed.
Given that the gearbox and engine inside the 997 Turbo Mk.II work seamlessly, development of both components have been conjoined. The GT-R was launched in 2007 and by that stage Porsche was already testing the facelifted 911 range in real life conditions. Worth noting is that Porsche, mentioned last year that the next 911 would feature cameras instead of traditional side-mirrors -- and this, 2-3 years before the car is even due. Mercedes began testing technology for the next S-Class last year, Pre-Scan.
The auto industry is too complex, volatile and expensive for manufacturers to work according to an emergent strategy. Although they do closely monitor competitors, already had the facelifted 997TT set in stone before GT-R launched. Engines are expensive to develop and are tested several years before they reach the market because the cost of failure is too great to risk.
Have you driven one?
Nope, and with the overall look and cheapness of it, I wouldn't ever want to. Would rather have a 993 or a first generation 997.
And I guess Porsche had no idea there would be a GTR gunning for the Turbo despite Nissan thrashing the two around the ring right under Porsche's nose till it actually was launched in 07? Or that there would be R8 or the AM V8. Seriosuly if Porsche is oblivious of the competition can I have one explanation for why they ware testing a GTR?
Believe me I am a fan of Porsche too, but I just don't put them in some pedestal that makes them immune to competition. I don't think themselves do either.
As far as I know, no FL Turbo has had such extensive revision to the drive system (PTV) and transmission (PDK).
Launched in 2007 but testing on the 'Ring a year earlier with a rumored 450 bhp combined with rear-biased AWD and sequential gearbox. In 2005, it was also spotted on the 'Ring under Infiniti G35 coupe camouflage and there was already the rumor of the sequential gearbox. And Porsche have been sitting on dual-clutch technology for quite some time; it's not like they started from scratch (neither did Nissan).
I don't think GT-R sales impact Turbo sales too much, but Porsche were obviously bothered enough to degrade themselves into an unprecedented public pissing contest with Nissan (and not Audi or Corvette) about 'Ring times. Neither of those are turbocharged 2+2 AWD coupes (and for build quality on the Z06, forget it), so philosophically are futher removed from the Turbo, though the R8 is closer than the Z06. And neither have been developed on the 'Ring (spiritual backyard to Porsche) nearly as extensively.
I think you are right. Not sure about the drive system revision for the turbi, must have been the introduction of the 4WD on the 993 Turbo.
PDK was bound to happen as other models got it and also every other manufacturer are using it.
My piont being that Porsche has almost always made big and small changes to the Turbo.
Did Porsche not claim 7:40 for the pre-FL model?
Oh, well, whatever, 7:39 is very good - if achievable outside Porsche testing - for the 911 Turbo.
It doesn't matter from which side of the fence you're looking at it... the Nissan GT-R and Porsche 911 Turbo and better for each other.
It's like back in the old days of EVO vs. STI.
Totally agree. But the implementation of these features has nothing to do with the GT-R since they are standard for sporty-/sports cars (see BMW, Audi and so on) AND they were available for other models in the Porsche lineup before. But this discussion seems to be very subjective ... and endless.
To me, the implementation is a logical (technical) consequence. I can also imagine that the implementation of these features was also claimed by Porsches marketing department in order to compete against the omnipresent GT-R laptimes. Speaking for Germany, I don't think that a lot of Turbo-owners would opt for the GT-R. In my hometown (the town with the highest Porsche population in Germany), 'the' standard Turbo owner is a > 50 yrs old, AT-driving cafe-racer. Carrera owners, switchers or 'climbers' would go for a GT-R ...
Nonetheless, the GT-R was a benchmark in the development of the 997 Turbo Mk. II and the 991/998.
The new Turbo has a more advanced torque vectoring system. Not the case for 993 Turbo vs updated 993 Turbo (S). The shortcomings of the current Turbo's AWD system were noticed by HvS in the supertest, but that was of limited knowledge to only within a very small circle of car enthusiasts. When US and Brit mags compared the GT-R to the Turbo in head to head tests and highlighted the shortcomings of Porsche's AWD, then the word was out and writing clearly on the wall for Porsche.
But Porsche were sitting on PDK technology for a long, long time. Why only just now start to use it?
None have a real competitor using both torque vectoring technologies and DCT which combined might give even the GT2 a fright, nevermind the Turbo similarly equipped. Audi had DSG for a long time (and still not on the R8), yet Porsche did not implement PDK.
Yes, they did. Last year, the 911 product chief claimed a 7:38 for the Turbo. That was on Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. The 7:39 for the FL 997 Turbo appears to have been done on standard Bridgestones. It stands to reason that the new car should be ~10s faster on MPSC's and that would mean a time of 7:28ish. Faster than Porsche's time for the GT2 and equal to the CGT...
Sorry, I missed the fact that the discussion changed from just engine upgrades. But still, I think the introduction of 4WD is a bigger step than any torque vectoring system.
I don't know, expensive to make it suitable for cunsumer use? Need of scale backup form VW?
Time moves the limits, the advancement of technology is moving at the speed of light. That could be part of the reason why the Turbo got that many updates.
993 Turbo wasn't updated. They just offered a more expensive Turbo S in addition to the standard Turbo. Same deal with 996. They offered a Turbo S. And also power option for the standard car, but the never updated the car it self (not in any significant way).
But all versions of the 993 Turbo had 4WD, correct? The big news here is the combination of PTV and PDK added to a FL version.
Out of curiosity, is the 997 Carrera 4S also now available with both PTV and PDK? And the CGT would have been the perfect vehicle with which to introduce PDK; customers in that segment are far less cost-conscious and would have no problem footing the bill for that bit of technology. Do also note that Ferrari's F1 sequential had been in production for a decade, yet Porsche did not respond.
Could be. But it's just as possible that Nissan's GT-R lit the fire under the Turbo's butt. And someone should have told Porsche that before they accused Nissan of using cheater slicks for their lap times; everything is perfectly explainable by the advancement of technology (which was firmly on the GT-R's side, not the Turbo's).
Yes, all 993 Turbos were 4WD, as far as I know.
The CGT would have been perfect with the PDK, but was the technology really ready then? Furhtermore, even if it would have been perfect and ready, would Porsche have done it? Even today the PDK is not used in the cars that are the most driver oriented.
I agree, the GT-R, the R8, the AMV8 and Corvette Z06 all took part in making a change necessary. The competition is much more fierce today.