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OFFICIAL Officially official: 2013 Audi A3

Discussion in 'A3/S3/RS3' started by purplehenk, Feb 22, 2012.

Page 13 of 14

EnI Contributing Member

Official Audi & BMW figures (by EU standard):

A3 1.4 TFSI FWD 122HP: 1.250kg
F21 114i 3dr 102HP: 1.360kg
F21 116i 3dr 136HP: 1.360kg

A3 1.8 TFSI FWD 180HP: 1.325kg
F21 118i 3dr 170HP: 1.365kg

A3 2.0 TDI FWD 150 HP: 1.355kg
F21 118d 3dr 143HP: 1.390kg

Entry A3 models are 110kg lighter than entry F21 1er models.
But in other, more powerful variants the difference is much lower: about 40kg.
It's a cost of RWD. Expect FWD 1er models to be much lighter!

EnI, May 22, 2012

#241
MarcinM Member

Also we are comparing 5 door 1 series with 3 door A3.

MarcinM, May 22, 2012

#242
Tumbo Audi/MB/VW/Lambo fan

MarcinM said: ↑

Also we are comparing 5 door 1 series with 3 door A3.

No, as you can clearly see, he compared 3 door (3dr) 1 series.

Tumbo, May 22, 2012

#243
Tumbo Audi/MB/VW/Lambo fan

Tumbo, May 23, 2012

#244
- Like x 3
speed_kills Active Member

EnI said: ↑

Official Audi & BMW figures (by EU standard):

A3 1.4 TFSI FWD 122HP: 1.250kg
F21 114i 3dr 102HP: 1.360kg
F21 116i 3dr 136HP: 1.360kg

A3 1.8 TFSI FWD 180HP: 1.325kg
F21 118i 3dr 170HP: 1.365kg

A3 2.0 TDI FWD 150 HP: 1.355kg
F21 118d 3dr 143HP: 1.390kg

Entry A3 models are 110kg lighter than entry F21 1er models.
But in other, more powerful variants the difference is much lower: about 40kg.
It's a cost of RWD. Expect FWD 1er models to be much lighter!

I would say it's the cost of being a smaller company with less buying power than VAG therefore not using as much aluminium.

speed_kills, May 23, 2012

#245
- Like x 2
EnI Contributing Member

speed_kills said: ↑

I would say it's the cost of being a smaller company with less buying power than VAG therefore not using as much aluminium.

MQB / A3 don't use much aluminum. Check the picture (blue & cyan is alu, gray & red is steel). Alu is still too expensive for smaller cars.

And RWD definitely adds quite some weight (central tunnel housing & sound isolation, drive shaft, rear differential, bigger rear axle etc).

Why do you think apart from 1er all the other compact cars are FWD? Because RWD is completely useless in this segment (too heavy, too space consuming). But it adds some extra punch to better driving dynamics.

EnI, May 23, 2012

#246
- Like x 2
Deckhook Well-Known Member

^Completely agree RWD is wasted in this segment and why BMW continue to beat a dead horse here is beyond me, especially when even market research shows that the majority of 1 series customers think it's FWD. Doesn't say a lot for the claim that driving dynamics are obviously superior when hardly anyone can tell.

Deckhook, May 23, 2012

#247
- Like x 1
EnI Contributing Member

Next gen of 1er will be FWD.

Developing FWD platform for current 1er only would be extremely expensive. So BMW had two choices: either to find a partner for sharing a FWD platform (eg. Fiat, PSA, Toyota, Hyundai etc) for 1er, or develop FWD platform in-house for BMW & MINI only ... and make it profitable with expanding the model portfolio of both MINI & BMW brands in FWD segment. For an expected profit margin at least 800k units of FWD cars should have been sold (right now 1er + X1 + all MINI models generate sales of a bit over 600k units).

And that's exactly what BMW is doing. Putting all BMW 1er & sub-1er models on FWD platform (except 2er coupe, cabrio & GC - which will still be RWD, and based on modular RWD platform), sharing the platform with MINI & at the same time expanding MINI product portfolio. So, 1er family (hatch, touring/GT, CST etc), X1/X2, sub-1er models, all MINI models (incl. Countryman Coupe, possible Countryman Cabrio, MINI "Spaceman" - a mini-van by MINI etc) all based on modular FWD "UKL" platform will definitely generate a sale of more than 800k units per year. An therefore the desired profit margin will be met.

Audi has VAG's "MQB" FWD platform - which is extremely profitable since lots of VW, Skoda, Seat & Audi models are based on it. So Audi profit margin is covered here. And this gives Audi a huge advantage over MB & BMW for at least one generation of compact models.

MB have developed current modular "MFA" platform on its own - initially for its A & B-class models. But the economies of scale doesn't work here since A & B do not generate enough sale for MFA platform to be profitable enough. Therefore MB's cooperation with Renault-Nissan: so I guess MFA platform will be offered to R-N for some of their models, boosting the profitability of MFA platform. Or perhaps in the future R-N & MB will develop a common FWD platform together for compact cars. Perhaps even for the next generation of A/B class already.

EnI, May 23, 2012

#248
speed_kills Active Member

EnI said: ↑

MQB / A3 don't use much aluminum. Check the picture (blue & cyan is alu, gray & red is steel). Alu is still too expensive for smaller cars.
And RWD definitely adds quite some weight (central tunnel housing & sound isolation, drive shaft, rear differential, bigger rear axle etc).

Why do you think apart from 1er all the other compact cars are FWD? Because RWD is completely useless in this segment (too heavy, too space consuming). But it adds some extra punch to better driving dynamics.

If that is true, then the A3 AWD and 1er AWD will weight the same. Let's see if that happens.

speed_kills, May 23, 2012

#249
Centurion Contributing Member

EnI said: ↑

Next gen of 1er will be FWD.

Makes perfect sense of the countless of individuals who buy a premium hatch for the sake of having a car that is yet luxurious. I doubt that an 114i buyer can tell the difference between a FWD and RWD driving experience let alone cares. Like Deckhook said, it's a bit of a wasted effort despite being an awesome gesture to automotive enthusiasts.

Centurion, May 23, 2012

#250
Sunny Well-Known Member

Well, while FWD is perfectly fine for your run of the mill - 114 or 118 or whatever - but the higher powered versions ones will definitely be handicapped. Look at M135i, all BMW needs to do is drop a bigger engine in vs S3 or the upcoming AMG A - they will need to hack a AWD version and the expenses that go with it, not to mention the restricted choice of engines that come with the transverse layouts.

Sunny, May 23, 2012

#251
- Like x 1
martinbo Global Moderator / Editor

You read my mind Sunny...

Methinks that the next gen 1er may exhibit a platform that will be engineered with engine placement and orientation flexibility as a paramount consideration. Cars like the (E87) 130i, (E82) 135i and (F21) M135i are too significant to BMW for them to simply pass up on.

Speculative or not, the next 1er is a whole generation away however and VAG's MQB platform is right here, right now... FWD and - soon - AWD.

martinbo, May 23, 2012

#252
EnI Contributing Member

130i, 135i, M135i, 1M will live on as 230i, 235i, M235i, M2. Coupe, Cabrio, GranCoupe.

Regarding the FWD 1er hatch ... be sure more powerful engines will be introduced. Way beyond the current 211HP 1.6 turbo from MINI JCW. The whole generation of Prince II engines still has to be announced. You'll be pleasantly surprised when the time comes!

Also mind the UKL platform will have FWD layout, but will be fully AWD compatible! Also suitable for small SAVs (Countryman / coupe, X1, X2). So the FWD BMWs & MINIs will share AWD system, while RWD-based BMW models will continue to use xDrive tech. Even more: FWD BMWs will probably use xDrive label as well, despite featuring different AWD tech than BMW models based on RWD platform So, something Audi have been doing already.

Btw, M135i F20/F21 can be also ordered with xDrive!!!

EnI, May 23, 2012

#253
Human Persue Your Dreams

EnI said: ↑

Next gen of 1er will be FWD.

Now I remembered this article that still begs the question?

Is BMW Getting Too Big?

BMW is a brand that for decades has embodied the notion of sporty performance driving. Indeed, the company invented the "sports sedan" in the 1960s, and in the 1980s saw its products become de-rigeuer symbols of business success.

Today the company is focused on another kind of performance: Sales. With grandiose goals of increasing worldwide sales by 55 percent in the next 10 years -- an objective that has little to do with quality or design excellence -- skeptics wonder whether the German company is beginning to lose its way.

On the horizon to help meet the sales target are small, front-drive BMW cars -- a real departure from the traditional rear-drive cars the brand has always championed -- and even smaller electric city cars.

"Any company that chooses a sales number as its primary and most publicly stated objective is wiring its organization for something that doesn't necessarily have to do with its reputation, quality, or engineering, which are the things that, in BMW's case, are the things that have made it successful," says Charlie Vogelheim, executive editor of auto buying website IntelliChoice.

BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer said earlier this month that the Bavarian company aims to sell 2 million vehicles a year worldwide by 2020, up from 1.29 million last year. Most of this growth will come from the BMW brand. The company also owns Mini and Rolls Royce, both acquired in the mid-1990s when BMW was also focused on increasing sales and scale. At that time, the company was wary of predictions about massive consolidation in the auto industry and wanted to grow through acquisition to make sure it was a buyer and not a seller.

Indeed, The company has always been fiercely independent. The Quandt family of Germany holds a controlling stake in the company, which has long positioned itself to avoid being a takeover target by another auto company.

The acquisition of Mini came as part of the larger of acquisition of the Rover Group, which proved disastrous for BMW. In search of sales at the lower end of the consumer spectrum and an engineering base focused on front-drive vehicles, BMW lost billions on Rover, a company that was in tatters and proved impossible to integrate into BMW's culture. BMW eventually sold off Rover and Land Rover, but kept Mini.

After that experience, it’s no wonder that BMW is now set to achieve its growth dreams from within, rather than by acquisition.

"We can achieve our targets with the brands we have, and through alliances we have formed," said Reithofer earlier this year on the sidelines of the Geneva auto show. Indeed, according to sources at the company, BMW looked into buying Swedish automaker Volvo from Ford, but passed on the opportunity because of a fear of a repeat of the Rover fiasco.

BMW’s growth will come in several areas. The company has big plans for China where it currently sells about 120,000 vehicles each year, and is adding capacity to build 300,000. It will also be expanding the BMW lineup with front-drive cars smaller than the current 3-Series, which will begin rolling out in late 2012. Those cars are being added to help BMW expand its entry-level premium offerings, as well as to meet stiffening fuel economy regulations in North America and other markets. BMW is expecting a resurgence in North American auto sales in the next five to seven years, and also expects that its smaller, less expensive front-drive models will take a bigger market share.

Mini, which sold 217,000 vehicles worldwide in 2009, is a big part of the plans. BMW management envisions Mini’s potential to be more than 400,000 vehicles annually, to be reached by expanding the model offerings. The company is launching its first four-door Mini, a crossover called the Countryman this year. It will join the Mini Cooper and Clubman, and even more variants are being planned.

BMW also believes it will capture a healthy share of the green vehicle market as it introduces more hybrid and electric vehicles. There will be a full hybrid version of the 5 Series out in 2011, and more are planned to roll out over the next five years. That plan includes BMW’s “Megacity” electric vehicles that will begin rolling in 2013 under a new brand designation.

Given BMW’s recent success, it’s not easy to poke holes in its growth plans. It passed Mercedes-Benz in sales in 2005 and Fortune Magazine named BMW "The most admired automotive company in the world” earlier this year.

But there are cracks in the foundation. Some of BMW's recent designs have not been well received by the auto press, or paying customers. BMW has also struggled in recent years to develop designs that fit with the brand's image and consumer perception, especially outside of its comfort zone of sports sedans and a roadster like the Z4. The X6 luxury crossover has neither been praised critically, nor lit showrooms afire. True, it was launched around the time of the financial crisis, but it has lacked buzz ever since. The same can be said in North America of the 5-Series GT, a crossover derived from the 7 Series sedan chassis.

In the past year, BMW North America has also shifted its marketing strategy to one themed "Joy of Driving." Indeed, BMW's U.S. ad agency, Austin, Texas-based GSD&M, has become the company's lead global ad agency, which means it has taken a leadership position in defining the company's global brand strategy. The company has not shelved its long-running "Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan, but it has de-emphasized it in favor of "Joy."

"Ultimate Driving Machine," say BMW's U.S. officials, while distinct in the marketplace and considered one of the most effective (and longest running) ad slogans in the U.S., was holding the brand back. BMW's research shows that too many premium car buyers either did not find BMW's performance-driven brand image accessible, or they rejected the brand as being for people who are "arrogant" or "poseurs." The "Joy" brand idea is designed to open up the brand and make it feel more accessible without, hopefully, sacrificing its aspirational quality.

But some analysts and critics believe that BMW is on the road to doing just that. "BMW seems to be on a mission to dilute their brand’s equity," says Cameron McNaughton, principal of auto marketing consultancy TreeFarm Partners. “They have been chasing volume for years, then you have the ‘Joy’ campaign which demoted the long standing 'The Ultimate Driving Machine' to an afterthought, and now you have the announcement that they are taking the brand into small front-drive cars... It's all going to work to water down its brand identity."?

Worse, and possibly more dangerous for the company, is that the BMW organization is being rewired to emphasize sales, potentially at the cost of profits and reputation. As Volkswagen, for example, has chased big sales numbers, it led the company to make several poor decisions -- developing the VW Phaeton luxury car, which was an expensive flop, and acquiring money-losing Spanish automaker Seat to name two.

“There is risk in any strategy,” says Tom Kowaleski, vice president of corporate communications for BMW North America. “But the risk comes in how you execute.”

A critical piece of BMW’s culture has always been profitability. By focusing on premium cars, and wielding a financial cudgel over the entire organization to keep costs down without sacrificing engineering excellence, BMW has always been well positioned to take the occasional risk. Steady profitability has always been part of what has made the company, not just the car, so admired. And though it seems just a few years ago that Reithofer’s predecessor, Dr. Helmut Panke, resisted setting long-range sales targets in favor of goals of bigger profits and better quality, it looks like priorities in Munich have shifted.

Today, it’s difficult to miss the parallel proclamations of BMW and rival Audi, each targeting the goal of being the world’s biggest premium brand, and beating one another to the top -- wherever the top is. Isn’t making the most money the “new black” of global business, rather than achieving the greatest sales? It’s enough one-upmanship on sales targets to make one place their bets on Mercedes-Benz.?

Human, May 23, 2012

#254
martinbo Global Moderator / Editor

Sorry gents, interesting contributions and there is relevance with respect to platform comparison but let's get back on topic to the new A3? Thanks...

martinbo, May 23, 2012

#255
- Like x 1
EnI Contributing Member

This article is irrelevant. I despise such "analysts" who have no idea what they are talking about.

MB have also announced to enter the sales ... and has had the FWD A & B class in portfolio for a while now. Lexus are also adding entry-level cars to the portfolio (CT), and FWD cars (CT, ES). And Audi image isn't flawed due to FWD layout.

also mind all premium carmakers are expanding portfolios & increasing sales (geez, even Lambo & Bentley are going SUV!!!!), so ... When everybody is "diluting brand" with increasing sales & expanding product portfolio, then nobody is really diluting brand. Since all are in the same wagon.

EnI, May 23, 2012

#256
Soup Well-Known Member

Soup, May 30, 2012

#257
- Like x 2
MarcinM Member

A3 configurator is up on Audi's german site

MarcinM, May 31, 2012

#258
- Like x 2
Just_me Well-Known Member

Swedish prices for the new A3 is pretty expensive.
A 1.8 TFSI with 180 hp is more expensive than a BMW 125i with 220 hp. Makes me wonder that the upcoming S3 is going to cost much more than a M135i.

Just_me, Sep 6, 2012

#259
Just_me Well-Known Member

For Audi fans. My personal review:

Read: http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/mb-a-200-cdi-vs-audi-a3-2-0-tdi-vs-bmw-118dm.46749/

Just_me, Sep 15, 2012

#260

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