For one, those "small graphic charts" were satellite telemtry data taken from video VBOX so you yet again stand corrected on that, which is used as a standard in the industry. It is just that you were singling LFA out. You clearly used selective argument when you never brought up any other single-clutch gearbox until shiploads of comments were put up criticizing other similar gearboxes. You should really not be using the Evo comment as a vehicle for your bitterness from the argument you had lost in the LFA thread. This is a F12 thread has nothing to do with the LFA and you should respect that.
What you said was that it was the most pointless, useless supercar ever. "Nothing special." Which users talk about its gearbox as the best one ever? There's a big difference between saying "it's the best one ever" vs saying "it's not 4x's slower than Gallardo e-Gear." How do you explain the "50x100 pixels" graphs showing no slower shift speed than e-Gear and comparable to 599 GTB? The article you quote spoke of old Alfa Selespeed or whatever...care to compare LFA gearchange vs Alfa 8C? The GTO and Aventador gearboxes are rated lower than 458 too and both cost more than 458. Yet, you seem not to care.
http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...f-a-supercar-production-version.31164/page-55 post #1090, when I wrote "The LF-A is not "slow", surely it'd be better with a faster gearbox, and an active rear wing, because the drag is very high" ..... for the nth time, I have been struck down ... if its can not be not only criticized, but not questioned, then it must be perfect.. contrary, @ post # 1103 you can see the "accurate" charts (especially the LF-A one...) where proves " In 1st to 2nd, both look very similar with almost no time for shift. However, in 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th, the Aventador is a smidge quicker (Guibo like this.) ....oppps.... effectively, ALL magazines, testing the Aventador, wrote "gearshifts are really quick, sometimes violent, remind me the LF-A".... or, if I'm wrong, can you show me some post of yours where you wrote "effectively, it'd be improved"? ...ooops the rest part of your post is your usual way to muddy the waters, when you don't know to write. but I want to give you an answer: when QR tested the 8C, if I remeber as weel, about gearbox they write "It's good, but latest gearboxes are better", rate was **** 1/2 (max possible: ***** gold) No triumphalistic comments (despite it's an italian magazine...) , but also not damning like "it seems like the 159's selespeed" ... I look forward to the LF-A II, to read the comparison with its predecessor ...
You are yet opening a pandora's box again through denying (or having a memory lapse) what you said in the past (you know fully well Guibo's ability to pull old posts out of the grave). I seriously don't want to go back there. Case in point, you are the only person in the world who puts more emphasis on subjective impressions and opinions over hard factual statistical data collected through satellite telemetry when it suits your selective argument. It is like saying "I know car A feels faster than car B and person X keeps showing me this telemetry graph where it says they both are dead even and I believe the feeling is more accurate". Randy Pobst did hate the LP700-4 transmission and said "at times, it shifts very slow" and "not as quick as I expected". Funny, it reminded me of you when I recently was reading a review of Gallardo LP570-4 Trofeo Stradale with at the new Pirelli Corsa super-slick tires event and the professional tester said the transmission (driving back to back with MP4-12C) was "sluggish and slow". It made me laugh thinking back how you used to prop it up saying "no one criticizes the e-gear". Heck, the irony is rich where EVO albeit said "LFA's transmission is outclassed by F12", you do remember them also saying "LFA's transmission is better than the old Gallardo clunky e-gear transmission". Right???
So if the Aventador is a smidge quicker, that makes the transmission automatically as good as 458, MP4-12C, or other DCTs? No, it doesn't. But of course it takes a person with an understanding of nuances between extremes to understand that. There have been Aventador tests that indicate its transmission is nothing as quick as the latest DCTs. Autocar: "It’s not a dual clutch system but it does pre-select ratios, so the effect is almost the same – in theory. In practice, however, it’s a long way from swapping ratios as quickly or as smoothly as a Ferrari 458 or McLaren MP4-12C." C&D: "compared with newer dual-clutch boxes in the Ferrari 458 and others, it still feels dated, especially around town when yawning torque holes between shifts cause passengers to bob and sway in their seats. Once in a while, in low-speed situations, the clutch bounces between slip and grip like a nervous first-time stick shifter." Motor Trend: "We universally loathed the Aventador's transmission. 'A major letdown,' notes MacKenzie. 'In Street mode, the shifts are slower than a wet weekend in Cleveland, and in Corsa, it's like you're getting hit in the back of the head with a shovel.' He ain't lying about either part. When left in full auto and Street mode, the Aventador's 'independent shifting rod' automated single-clutch manual is plain awful. Worse than the Aston Martin Vantage S and approaching Smart Fortwo levels of terribleness. Lambo claims it went with the ISR solution over a dual-clutch to save weight. Big mistake, say all of us." Need I remind you that the Aventador costs more than the 458 or MP4-12C? I think I must, because you seem strangely quiet when this European car is slagged for its transmission. Also note in that thread that I went beyond graphs and even posted the intermediate, GPS-sourced split times which suggest that the LFA is actually quicker than the 599 GTB HGTE in its shifts: http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...-production-version.31164/page-56#post-586007 Alfa 8C vs LFA, as measured by Road & Track. The Alfa isn't anywhere really close, looking more like a pure manual transmission: No triumphalistic comments, yet the pro-Italian rating from the Italian mag says it all. R&T on the other hand, as you know, is an American magazine so you can't claim patriotism is behind their findings. 50x150 pixes? No, try 821x619: http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...r-production-version.31164/reply?quote=586088 Still missing from your post mafalda: Someone who says the LFA transmission is the best ever. Mafalda, I've never said the LFA transmission can't be improved for speed and smoothness. The question is: Does that really matter? Is it in keeping with the visceral feel the engineers wanted for the LFA? Think about why many street Lexus vehicles have comfortable, adaptive dampers, yet the LFA's are fixed-rate non-adjustable (outside of normal settings like toe, caster, camber, etc). Secondly, does it appear to you that the LFA's transmission speeds are 4x's slower than eGear?
Ultimate Fantasy 1: 2013 Ferrari F12 Berlinetta http://www.automobilemag.com/featur...sy_1_2013_ferrari_f12_berlinetta/viewall.html With sincere apologizes to Messieurs Lamborghini, Porsche, Bugatti, and Pagani, a car magazine without a Ferrari gracing its pages could not possibly have the word "Fantasies" emblazoned on its cover. Simply put, there are fantasy cars and then there are Ferraris. In the presence of a Maranello masterpiece, every other marque loses some of its luster. Even Ferrari's hometown is a cross between an automotive Vatican and a flat-plane-crank version of Vegas, with gift shops, shrines, and museums celebrating the prancing horse. Devotees fumble with their cameras every time a red sports car screams down the narrow streets, turning unleaded holy water into the holiest of hydrocarbons. Driving a Ferrari is a fantasy that relatively few folks will ever fulfill. Actually owning a Ferrari is reserved for the elite few. But it is only the luckiest people on earth who are able to drive a preproduction version of Ferrari's latest creation. Who can resist the fanfare of the Ferrari fantasy? Especially when you're invited to a private lunch with Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo. Especially when you're given access to Ferrari's Fiorano track and turned loose on the very roads that Ferrari uses to develop its cars. Especially when you're given the keys to a 2013 Ferrari F12 Berlinetta.. http://www.automobilemag.com/featur...sy_1_2013_ferrari_f12_berlinetta/viewall.html
I've also asked to you: show me where you criticize its gearshift... where? please link me contrary, you sustain the thesis of 330CIZHP: LF-A's gearshist as almost fast as aventador!!! thanks for this 821*619 pixels.. itcome form R&T right? ...let's go to R&T website to read the article -Aventador: "the transmission goes into berserk mode and every upshift is lightning-fast and sledgehammer-strike hard" ...can you help me find a similar comment about the LF-A's gearshift? why the LF-A (and also the N.E.) is slower than a Gallardo LP560 dispite its "faster" gearshift (if LFA = Avent, and Avent >Lp560 -----> LFA MUST gearshift faster than LP560" let's see about 8C (also fomr R&T) " Changing gears manually is fun as well" to support your bizarre theories, you used of R & T as a source , but does not seem to agree with you, as I do not read comments enthusiastic about its gearshift....and as usual, discarding any criticism, endorsing my point every time. as you say, the LF-A is untouchable. Or it's perfect, oppure you're fanboys. make your choice
Mafalda, for the love of God, please stop grasping at straws here. Why do you think we are so stupid??? It is the same old f'ing selective argument for the last 2 years (and strangely, after several weeks). You did call LFA the "most useless supercar ever" (which is fine since it is your personal opinion) so why are you polluting this Ferrari thread with the nonsense rhetoric?? Calling me a "fanboi" is laughable. No I don't believe LFA's transmission is quick as that of the Aventador, but why does it matter?? Lambo did not opt for the quicker DCT either. It is like me saying, Aventador should have weighed 3400 lbs like the LFA instead of 4200 lbs since they are both CF. No I am not a fanboi since I am not putting down any car here. It is more like you being mired in your hatred since there is no evidence whatsoever to backup your claim and only based on your speculation. That is why there is no credibility in this argument since if you truly were honest in your argument, you would be questioning tons of other bigger variables first such as, the abnormal 0 - 30 mph time as to how it is only the same as a 440 HP M3 GTS, off the line traction and making sure you keep the massive tire grip differences in mind, which are the low hanging fruits and the true culprits. You are simply killing the brain cells in my head. Lexus LFA NE has much better tires than the standard LFA and it is not slower than the LP560-4 on Pirelli Corsa super-slick tires with AWD. We have talked about how standard LFA's 0 - 60 mph is the only culprit. Once after 100 km/h, it has a best time of getting to 200 km/h in 7.5 and to 260 km/h in only 16.6 seconds with the exact same transmission. The Nurburgring edition did 100 km/h - 200 km/h in only 7.3 seconds. I am curious how many zillion times more would you be stood corrected on the fact and variables. I want to know so that I can copy paste the same posts every single time you bring up your biased logic. The only test that happened was with Horst Von Saurma and Sport Auto. There is only one test avalailable of LFA NE and it was done by Sport Auto so it is only fair to compare the closest testing surface, conditions and driver to that of the LFA NE. Sport Auto Lexus LFA NE 0 - 200 km/h: 11.2 seconds 100 - 200 km/h: 7.3 seconds Sport Auto Gallardo LP560-4 100 - 200 km/h: 7.8 seconds 0 - 200 km/h: 11.6 seconds Sport Auto R8 V10 GT 560 PS 100 - 200 km/h: 8.1 seconds 0 - 200 km/h: 12.0 seconds Sport Auto SLS AMG 100 - 200 km/h: 7.9 seconds 0 - 200 km/h: 11.7 seconds Sport Auto Porsche GT3 RS 4.0 500 PS 100 - 200 km/h: 8.1 seconds 0 - 200 km/h: 12.0 seconds Sport Auto Porsche Turbo S PDK 0 - 200 km/h: 10.6 seconds 100 - 200 km/h: 7.5 seconds So with the same driver and testing track, even when LFA is not a straight line car since it makes tons more downforce with the huge wing, Horst Von Saurma was 4/10ths faster with the LFA NE than the LP560-4 inspite of the LP560-4 wearing Corsa tires in the sport auto test while the LFA NE was wearing the old 2009 Nissan GTR high-grip street tires. Furthermore, AutoCar went to great lengths to explain why LFA's acceleration numbers did not do justice to its "accelerative abilities". It explains exactly that with zero ambiguity left. (AutoCar, September 2010) However, any measure of performance that includes a standing start greatly undersells the LFA’s accelerative ability because, without launch control, the LFA struggles off the line, either bogging down or burning its clutch. Discount the launch and the LFA is much more competitive. A 30-100mph time of 6.2sec is about the same as the SLS’s and LP560’s. Furthermore, unlike our test prototype, customer cars are expected to have launch control. They also praised how fast the transmission is, but disliked the harshness and how it behaves in slow shifting modes In performance terms, the LFA’s biggest disappointment is its single-clutch gearbox. Next to the latest dual-clutch systems, it feels outdated. In its most extreme setting, the changes are fast enough but brutal; switch to a slower setting and the changes become ponderous and clumsy Isn't this exactly what I have been saying for the last 2 years that the only thing abnormal is the tests getting 4.2 - 4.5 seconds 0 - 100 km/h? AutoCar made it abundantly clear that the problem is only till 30 mph. Once after 30 mph and LFA gaining full traction well before the 1st gear shift, LFA starts accelerating like anyone would expect it to up to the finish of the race, which is 1000 meters or 1 KM. However, considering endurance track racing begins with a flying start and rolling acceleration is what truly matters, I can imagine why Lexus never perfected LFA's launching abilities since it is not an important thing in the case of the LFA. You just simply will never get it since you are suffering from severe biased perceptions and no matter how many hard facts are put in front of you and questioning your credibility. However, you will always fail to keep selling that shoddy Italian magazine argument since you cannot convince anyone of something that is not based on facts.
1. talk about LF-A, or LF-A n.e. 2. LFA =/= LFA N.E. (-30 Kgs, +11ps, improved gearshifts etc) 3. about LP560, there's a lots of full test better than Sport Auto 4. quoting Autocar, please don't change the article, becaus they wrote "A 30-100mph time of 6.2sec is just 0.1sec off the SLS’s and LP560’s." 0.1s off =/= LF-A is faster 5. Also about Autocar, they wrote "In its most extreme setting, the changes are fast enough " too. If I can read english as well, "changes are fast enough" =/= "incredibly fast" 6. Autocar also wrote (I cannot find it in your post..) Verdict... "BAD": gearbox performances.... 7. If LF-A has "old" tyres is a choice, not an excuse 8. Corsa give and hand just @ start, not from 0.1 to 397 Kph 9. AWD give an hand just @ start. contrary, after the start increase frictions..... 10. What about AMuS? they agree with Autocar? What About Auto ? "worst part of the car"? What about Quattroruote (from 1st drive)? "gearshifts are slow when you go fast, and no-comfortable when you go slow". I remeber to you how QR, Autocar and AmuS are three of the mostimportant car-magazines all over the world. why I cannot find something like "incredibly quick-gearshift"? I'd continue.... as usual, you refuse any criticism and in doing yours bets higher and higher. This your last argument (LFA' gearshift = aventador) is unfounded. the worst thing is that, in a few months, you'write LFA = F12...? LFA = Mc P1? see you
Wrong! LFA NE makes a lot more downforce than the standard LFA so it is not much quicker than the standard LFA and the weight difference was only 22 KG (1562 KG vs 1580 KG in SA). It is just that there is no testing side by side available. Chris Harris even said aside from the grip levels, he could not tell much difference driving back to back and that he would just take the standard LFA and throw on the same tires and be nearly as good. Officially, Pirelli advertises a 10% improvement over any non racing compound street tires. For McLaren MP4-12C, Pirelli advertises a substantial improvement in 0 - 60 mph number alone (3.1 seconds), if Corsa tires are selected. Z06 Carbon showed an improvement of 6.5 seconds per lap just with the slick tire swap at Laguna Seca in a test. Better yet, you should read what Saurma and SA said about having slick tires and how it improves performance. Think about it. The difference has to be big, which is why they are called "racing compound" tires since they sacrifice a lot of drivability and comfort in order to gain dry traction for racing purposes. If there was only a negligible difference (1/10ths) then racing compound tires would have died out since no one would see the point of sacrificing so much to gain almost nothing in the dry. I am not going to respond to your baseless rhetoric (LFA vs Aventador transmission as I have said what I wanted to say based on all factual VBOX telemetry evidence), on the other hand. No way, myself or anyone else will draw conclusions on LFA's gearbox vs that of F12 or MP1 since they are dual-clutch gearboxes and their acceleration curve show no hiccups. I am done arguing.
Why do I need to criticize its gearshift? I can understand why Lexus would want it, and why Lambo would want theirs. Is this a referendum on the LFA vs Aventador? Or the Aventador vs other cars which cost much less, but have better transmissions. I clearly state the LFA's transmission is slower than DCT here: http://www.germancarforum.com/community/threads/911-gt2-rs-vs-lexus-lfa.37154/page-2#post-512187 And here: http://www.germancarforum.com/commu...ead-was-coming-lf-a-vs-gtr.31191/#post-420352 Now, the proof is on you, as it has been since you made the claim, that some of us think the LFA's transmission is the best ever. Comments like R&T for the LFA's transmission? I've already posted some, but since you keep forgetting, here you go: "The linear, yet savage, power delivery is intoxicating and the ferocity with which the transmission can slam in the gearchanges is literally breathtaking." --5th Gear "The shifts are smooth and eye-blink quick in manual mode but become a bit clunky in the automatic setting. (This is the case with most single-clutch automated manuals.)" --Car & Driver "Getting back up to speed, the column-mounted paddles click up through the six-speed ASG gearbox remarkably fast. Shifts can come as quickly as 0.2 second in Sport mode, about as fast as any gearbox made, but they aren't at all brutal." --Autoweek "The gearbox is just so brilliant. A great mechanical feeling. It reacts immediately." Sandor van Es, Autoweek.nl, NRing Edition "Hit a clear patch of road and the first thing you notice is the phenomenal straight-line speed - 0-60 in 3.6 seconds - and the second is the insanely quick gear change." --James Martin, Daily Mail For sure, it's not praised like the DCTs in the Nissan, 458, or MP4-12C. I never said it was. But similarly damning comments have been thrown at the Aventador, which is cheaper than those cars, yet you remain silent. Did you really want me to list those comments here? I can do it, if you like. This has got to be the worst example of "deductive logic" I've ever seen on this forum. We've already discussed LP560: torque, aero drag, etc. Only a fanboy pins it down on shift speeds. By that logic, does that mean that the LP560 is slower than Aventador due ONLY to the gearshift? 700 hp has nothing to do with it? LOL. LFA has slower gearshift than Boxster w/PDK, but guess which one is faster? LFA is slower than ZR1, but guess which one has faster gearshift? And what does fun have to do with shift speeds?? You made a comment about QR saying LFA shifts like old Selespeed. Isn't the 8C faster than old Selespeed? Does that chart look to you like the LFA is slower than 8C? Open your eyes before posting, mafalda. Writers have said the LFA transmission is fun and suits the character of the LFA too...
