Discussion in '5 Series' started by Just_me, Jan 9, 2012.
^ I got it too
We all got his meaning and I think Martin was only taking the pulling his leg with his reply but I would still like to understand the whole easier/more fun comment.
It is a rare case to have more than 500 PS with three pedals (I can only think of M5, R8, Gallardo and Carrera GT).
For what it's worth, I would have the M5 F10 with the M DCT gearbox, no question. My R8 V10 has a manual gearbox and even if I had the option of a smooth dual-clutch gearbox, I probably would have stuck with the manual. My Z4 M Coupe had a manual gearbox (obviously no option of a semi-auto) but I was very happy with it. My M3 E92 had the M DCT, and the manual didn't even get a look in.
There's no ryhme or reason for this. I just think it depends on the character of the car.
Indeed. Probably the best laugh of the year, if you leave the Chuck Norris jokes aside
After years of reading about what is driving in various car magazines, I am of the opinion that the difference between the FI and NA torque is in taste. Forced induction torque tastes better. The naturally aspirated one is way to salty. I am a driving enthusiast
I will try to reply with a few facts that I didn't just make up, just for the fun of it:
It's a fact that the more torque an engine produces, the higher the demand is, from the clutch (whatever type it is), so that the power can be transfered to the wheels.
Another fact is, that the good old clutch with the friction material (instead of viscous liquids) is the most effective way to transfer the power, with the minimum losses.
Now, friction is depended on two variables, if I am not mistaken. The friction material, via the friction coefficient (μ), and the springs that push the clutch disk towards the flywheel.
From my years in junior highschool I learnt that Force equals the friction coefficient times the, vertical to the area, force. We used to write it as F = μ * N
So, in order to effectivelly tranfer the power you need a high F force. That can be achieved via either a high μ or a high N.
> High levels of friction coefficient, generally mean that the clutch will have to be replaced very often, as it wears out very easily. It's made of a softer material, compared to "regular" clutches, in order to achieve higher friction.
> High levels of N force can be achieved using harder springs, which generally translates into putting more force on the clutch pedal via your foot. So you should better eat a good breakfast before you drive your F10M.
Another fact is that engineers tend to love the word "balance". Being one of them, I can assure you that it's not that hard to find the balance between effort on the clutch pedal and clutch wearing, in order to achieve the best possible shifting experience, with the best possible efficiency, keeping in mind the cost to replace the clutch.
Also, the way the power is generated, is completely irrelevant to the transmission system. 700Nm that are achieved via a FI engine are the same as if they were made from a NA engine. So, your argument pretty much sucks.
Have a nice day
The engine's character probably plays the biggest part in determining which gearbox best suits it. I've always felt diesels suit automatics best, same feeling for FI engined cars, but occasionally it's the gearbox that defines the best experience to be had, example; drive an R-Tronic R8 and you'll soon realise it's a far sweeter drive in manual form.
Knowing how potentially great the M-DCT could have been when I owned mine and how it now is I just can't imagine the manual BMW are offering with the M5 will be a patch on it though it will be interesting to read the reviews when they finally appear to see if this ends up to be true.
Levi68, look I've had a bit of fun pulling your leg - made easier by the fact that, not having English as a home language, the points you try to make come across as more exaggerated than you intend. Often called sweeping statements, points like these are based less on fact and more on gut feel and intuition. As a result, because they're not based on specific facts, it's very difficult to define hard and fast rules yet much easier to find exceptions to these rules.
The truth of the matter in your standpoint is that, in plain words, a manual gearbox is less appropriate for an M5 than the automated dual clutch transmission specifically developed with the entire character, purpose and end application of the car taken into account. You think that a manual gearbox for the new M5 is less suitable and I agree with you 100%.
But how you create sweeping statements is by attempting to pass your opinions as black and white rules. Numbers like 500 hp become random and statements like "manuals and FI don't belong together" become arbitrary because exceptions to the rules are plentiful. For example, a 911 GT2 RS makes 620 ps & 700 Nm and is force-inducted. You'll argue that the GT2 RS is a hardcore supercar with a completely different purpose to a luxo-barge M5 - and you'd be right. Still, doesn't change the fact that I just broke your arbitrary rules with one example.
Betty and Deckhook have described things better, sometimes there just isn't a black and white reason as to which transmission is best - it all has to be assessed and considered on a case by case basis. Manual R8 all the way because of the comparatively inferior R-Tronic. M-DCT M5 over manual simply because it suits the car's purpose, audience and character more appropriately. There's no science to it - just good old petrolhead common sense.
I officially feel like I am an engineer. Thanks for that explanation Giannis.