Discussion in '5 Series' started by Just_me, Jan 9, 2012.
Doubtful when there is 1M and M3 with manuals.
I hope it's a brand new one engineered for the F10 M5 otherwise it'll be a half arse job like E60 M5.
All info for the moment is this - short throw shift linkage topped with a black leather backlit shift knob. The gearbox must been beefed up since the new M5 have 680 nm of torque.
Picture from one of the testcars
He is not a BMW Insider until I see some proof of that. His insider info is mostly wrong, and when it's right it's about things you and I could have found out ourselves.
But that's beside the point, because even if he were a BMW insider (which he might as well be), does that mean I have to agree with him, or share his sentiments? I surely think not. So what are you trying to say that involves both me and Scott?
Don't think it's brand new. Pretty sure of that in fact. It's an existing one, adapted to the M5. I think it originally comes from the M3?
But yea it's an afterthought made for the U.S market, where the manual E60 M5 apparantly was quite popular. Enough so to make a new manual version for the F10.
If anything manual will help give the driver better control to keep the engine in the sweet spot while the lag inherent in most DCT will probably only compound the perceived lag.
Also, when the shifting takes more time because you have to push the clutch and all, the actual engine delay is already gone when you're done putting the car in the next gear?
Edit; no that can't work because you only push the gas pedal when you're done shifting. Makes sense :/
When will we see the X5M manual then? :eusa_doh:
I can't see the point of a manual M5 but then again I am not American and BMW thinks that only Americans want this option. BMW are probably right about that!
Owning two GTIs, one with DCT and one without I can tell you that lag is most present in the one without, this might be acceptable in that class of car but I definitely wouldn't accept in something like the M5.
^Ah, yes, when you can't come up with an actual physically plausible explanation, play the "I owned the sun and the moon... and the moon was brighter" card. Bravo!
Hmmm, a couple of observations not directed at anyone in particular...
I imagine that, in the 'States where the automatic transmission is all-pervasive, having put the effort in and being able to "drive a stick" is like some sort of badge of honour for passionate enthusiasts. It's the only way I can rationalise why BMW continue to offer a manual 'box in the M5 for just North America and nowhere else. Also, the practice is limited to just the M5; it's not like Mercedes Benz is required to offer the C63 and E63 AMGs with manual transmissions. It's an odd practice but nothing more as it is, after all, a no-cost option. In no way does it detract from from the "optimal" configuration as engineered by BMW M as this is freely available as standard. It's an additional choice that's all and in no way dilutes the M5 offering.
Maybe it's just that in the 'States some of the people who buy BMWs do so because they can be had with a manual gearbox.
With regard to whether the fitment of a manual gearbox will exacerbate the (very) little turbo-lag of the S63Tu - this really does depend on the driver. Used correctly, a manual transmission can easily be controlled to mitigate the effects of turbocharging. Only in the most severe examples of off-on boost characteristics (like the old Scooby STIs, EVO etc) does the driver have to work really hard (and thus drive rather fast) to stay in the meat of the torque curve. But in no way is it a cut and dried case of manual gearboxes worsening turbo-lag; you could slot an M-DCT into manual, change up early (software permitting) into 7th and get exactly the same lag effect as you would in a manual in 6th gear at low rpm.
I have a Borg-Warner assigned patent document titled "Method of Controlling a Dual Clutch Transmission" and it's a fascinating (and sometimes completely mind-boggling) piece of reading. The fundamental tenet of the document describes the control logic required to match engine speed to transmission (clutch) speed across the operating spectrum. In absolute layman's terms the process involves the measurement of a number of different input variables (throttle position, engine stall speed, selected gear, clutch speed etc) and the iterative procedure that ensues in order to match engine speed to transmission speed based on the throttle position before executing the gear change. To say that the logic is complex is an understatement as there are 22 pages of double column fineprint describing the logic for every conceivable scenario.
It's amazing to consider how sophisticated the whole operation and underlying technology is of a modern automated transmission. But for me, what's even more amazing is that a good driver does all of this intuitively and naturally at the controls of a manual transmission-equipped car. It's this involvement, this "give the brain something to do" that encompasses the allure and appeal of operating a manual car. Sure, it's slower and less efficient and imposes a higher-than-desirable workload on novice and less-competent drivers but that's also part of the attraction: it's a skill that's easy to acquire yet difficult to master.
In the end, operating levers and pedals and wheels to control the forward, backward and sideways motion of a transportation device is destined to become archaic. It'll all become rather Playstation soon enough. Until then I'll be sure to maximise the opportunity and enjoy the art of driving in its present form(s) to the fullest. And for me (and some North American M5 owners) that will involve getting stuck in with a good ol' manual tranny whenever possible.
Offering the M5 with a manual is 'what we came to expect from BMW ///M" so brilliant, well done and thank you!:t-cheers:
Personally I will have the M-DCT, that is until I have learned to drive and enjoy the car properly and honed my driving skill to my personal best ability of becoming a driver worthy of an M5 THEN the manual will be my reward.
A pure drivers car it's going to be that manual!
Pointless. FI cars, and especially heavy ones do not need manual.
Yeah, sure a 2000 kg sedan is a pure drivers car! :t-crazy2:
If you want a manual to make you feel like some driving god then go get a car that is really suited like a proper sportscar, but a 2 ton monster that's got adaptive suspension and enough sound deadening to require the stereo to pipe the engine note to you artifically. :eusa_doh:
Maybe someone might just have a preference for a manual to feel more engaged in the driving experience, especially when there is so much power to explore. And a sedan is the only vehicle they have.
One of my favorite drives of all time was an e39 530i with a manual transmission. Loved that car.
Maybe it is time to stop throwing rocks boys, especially you Deckhook!
OK, maybe I find it more silly than some others here. But the world has moved on and so should the M5 because if you think about it the M5 is meant to be the pinnacle of BMW's expertise all rolled up into a mighty saloon and as Scott said it was designed and developed with one transmission in mind.
So my apologise for speaking passionately about something I feel is wrong and shouldn't have happened. :t-cheers:
The M5 is sports sedan, first and foremost. Sure, it's a heavy, luxury laden sports sedan, but it is a sports sedan. If someone wants a row-it-yourself option, more power to them. I did not realize having options available so the customer who is going to buy with his/her money was such a bad thing. And yes, it may not be as optimized as the M-DCT, but I'd imagine this customer is not as concerned with winning a drag race every now and then. Rather he's concerned with the way the car drives all the time.
Now regarding how much of an afterthought the manual transmission is, I know the E60 was a true afterthought, but how much of an afterthought was it in the F10? I'd imagine after the E60, the engineers were a bit more involved with its integration this time around. And if that's the case, it'll still be a brilliant ride. I remember reading on these forums that Bartek, who has a manual E60 M5, is pretty satisfied with it. Now if I were so fortunate to have the means to get an M5, I'd get an M-DCT. Unfortunately, I've yet to master the art of the manual transmission. But if I was adept I'd go with the manual transmission because if by chance I fry the transmission on the manual, I'd imagine I'd be out about $7500. Going by the M3, if I were to fry the M-DCT, I'd be looking at a minimum of $12000-14000.
I agree with you about the E39, but the F10 is completly another thing, it is very high-tech sedan compared to the "hard-core" M5 E39 that even scared 911's, so a manual does not fit. I doubt a manual transmission in the Nissan GT-R would make it more "fun" or more connected to the driver.
While I cannot personally attest to it since I haven't drove the car, so what I'm about to say may be considered moot. But if one is experienced enough with a manual transmission, it'll be more connected. Sure, you'll not be able to do those ridiculous sub-3 sec. 0-60 launches, but how often can one do that before they get tired of it? During the lifetime of owning the car, I'd want soemthing that drives well all the time and the way I want versus something that's compromised. For alot folks enjoying rowing through the gears, having both hands on the wheel all the time can get mundane.
If you want to praise BMW for giving the option to chose either manual or DCT then why has it been limited to the American market, by the sounds of this forum there is a lot of like minded people in the rest of the world who would chose the manual but aren't given the choice... why?
BMW value the US market far more than else where and are only willing to compromise this car on this market because Americans perception of sportiness means shifting the gears themselves and for BMW to offer this on their top performer (the only one to do so) it gives them the image (there at least) that they are the sporty brand of choice thus boosting sales.
It looks to me like marketing have overruled M-Division and made to decision to compromise the M5 to appease one market (admittedly a big one), maybe the M in M-Division should now stand for Marketing instead of Motorsport.
Previous M5 also had manual gearbox as an option in US which mean marketing have overruled M-Division long time ago