Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... When one opens a post with "Do you seriously believe what you write?" then you're obviously slinging the first insult. For the rest of the comments thrown in by both parties, I could care less about your little ongoing spat. What bugs me much more is how you Betty just decide to jump in boots-n-all and not expect repercussions. The naivety of it. Why don't you just open a post with "I disagree..." Once again you and your confrontational disposition started this. It's there for all to see. Do not respond to this post. This serves as a stern warning to change your "forum body language" or face consequences. EDIT: Oh and just for the record, I too don't agree universally with klier's assertion that when the price-point is close that BMWs are better than comparable Porsches. But there's a way to enter into that debate.
I would have an M3 over a base carrera even though I'm reasonably sure most would have the Porsche (money no object). But I wonder how BMW will price these two cars? the thing is that the majority of M, AMG and Audi RS fans are also big Porsche fans, I just hope that the pricing structure of the M3 GTS and CRT aren't a taste of things to come. And on a side note, have you guys noticed how Scott always points out that the new chassis accepts a rear engined layout? I am telling you guys now come 2030 all cars will be rear engined to get around EU safety regs. I will take my theory and shove it up my own ass, if Scott comes out and denies it flat out !!! :t-cheers:
And you can bet that it is, Hein. I have noticed it, just never really caught on to what he is actually trying to say. Now you have opened the "pandora's box" and I for one would love to hear more Scott...if or not? Edit: I had a look at your profile - welcome to another fellow coutrymen:t-cheers:
Porsche makes supercars and sports cars.. BMW makes sporty luxury cars.. The comparison is not right..imo
OK - one example that somewhat "supports" kliers point: Base Cayman (265hp) price in germany: 50790,- € equipped with leather seats and 18 inch wheels: > 54.000 € 1 M Coupe (340hp, with 19 inch and leather seats): 50.500 € Result: Cayman 8% more expensive, but 1 M will wipe the floor with the entry cayman at the Nordschleife and Hockenheimring
And yet people still buy the base Cayman eh? It just proves that the lap time round a circuit has absolutely no relevance as to whether a car is better than the other or not? In that case I could list several cars which are cheaper than the 1M that would wipe the floor with it round a circuit.
Dollar for dollar, yes you get more performance (I reiterate "more performance", not "better car" which is subjective and depends on what is important to one) from a BMW than a Porsche. What is the big surprise about that? The same way you get more performance dollar for dollar from a Subaru or Nissan or Vette compared to a BMW. Or even from a Porsche compared to a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. In each case you pay a premium for intangibles like brand prestige, exclusivity etc... Of course then there are the limited production cars where like M3 GTS, 911 Speedster where you pay a huge premium for the highly limited nature making them even more expensive than comparable or even better products from "higher" brands.
Sometimes, it is BMW's own marketing that leads to such comparisons. Recall that in the early promotional literature for the current M3, BMW listed among its competitors: RS4, CLK63 AMG, 911 Carrera. Shrewdly, they praised the Porsche for its sporty nature and claimed superiority only in matters of utility and space. But the blood was drawn, and car mags (being what they are) will look to find competitors whether real or imagined. While some will only buy a 911 because they know the quality it brings, there's no doubt a large demographic interested in both vehicles. I think that is probably the answer. It's not a lack of technical know-how. Porsche has built its reputation as a premium-marque player above BMW. It is now looking at jumping into the market populated by Ferrari, Lamborghini, and now McLaren. This is a whole step yet again above. IMO, their status would erode somewhat if they went to fight it out for bang-for-buck honors against the likes of Mustang/Camaro/Evo. Such cars generally produce little profit per unit compared to a 911. In the US market, the tyical 911 customer piles on another $8,000 in options that have nothing to do with performance, so it's obviously not performance/dollar these customers are after. Simply put, Porsche charges what it does because it can, and if BMW genuinely thought its M3 was just as good in every way, they'd price it to match. BMW are just like any other business; they're not "giving" enthusiasts a 911 at cut-rate prices out of the kindness of their hearts, or through some witchcraft of engineering that Porsche don't know about. Now being a part of the VW empire, there's little incentive to build a serious bang-for-buck car, other than to take advantage of existing volume capabilities or fleet economy issues afforded by VW. Remember, some previous VW-Porsche models catering to lower income customers did not go so well... With regard to 1M and track performance numbers, Porsche sells over 4800 Caymans in even a bad year. 1M production won't touch this. Magazine test results and track numbers are great at stirring discussion among car nerds like us. Very evident in countless 'Ring discussions about GT-Rs and Corvettes against various Porsches. In they end, these great results sell a lot of magazines, but the buying public decides which cars "wipe the floor" with the other. The Viper ACR serves as a stark reminder of what happens when one goes a little too far in chasing track records, with little regard to what really matters to customers in a certain price bracket.
And IMO in short, BMW's closest rival is Porsche. M-B's strategy and in the end it's car's focus has and always will be leaning more towards comfort, comfort orientated suspension engineering and innovation (yes, yes - I know there is AMG and the SLS,SLR,F1 etc...M-B has certainly one of the richest racing heritages of all car manufacturers) BUT their mainstream strategy remains comfort. Audi has it's rich racing history and a halo car i.e. R8 but falls far short of being a sporty brand. Lexus has had it's sights set firmly on LUXURY gunning M-B for market share, they also has the LF-A super car but does not make them a sporty orientated brand by a long shot. Same goes for Nissan and the GTR...I can go on and on. Thus I stand by my initial opinion that it's BMW vs Porsche and visa versa
I disagree. MB and Audi are clearly the nearest competitors to BMW. And based on the last two years both these brands have been more performance orientated than BMW. BMW don't even have an answer for the SLS AMG and the R8 V10, which is why I left the brand. Porsche only really competes with BMW in terms of SUV's and roadsters. Even the 911 and M3 are not that similar. Price wise they are quite different and the 911 doesn't have any useable rear seats.
BMW's link with M-B and Audi is building prestigious, high-performance, luxury cars. But the emphasis on driving pleasure, RWD and stiffer, sportier suspension setup, direct steering and development of 'sport cars for the road' also BMW M has been the main strategy. And yes, I do agree that things have changed the last two years. Neither Audi nor M-B marketed themselves as a sporty oriented brands in the past, whilst BMW did - hence M-B became the 'old man's car' and BMW was seen as the more youthful sporty brand etc. Things are changing - BMW is catering for a wider audience and in the exact same but opposite way so is M-B and Audi. And the fact that BMW don't even have an answer for the SLS AMG and the R8 V10 is worrying for me as enthusiast also, a topic that was and will be hot on BMW's plate from the customer side until we get what we want. For the now and today I still see Porsche as the more direct rival and yes it's changing because of market adaptation from all four brands - So going forward and in the end ALL 4 brands will be equal in offering Luxury, sport, utility etc. And overlap in all these strategies i.e. (S-Class, 7er, A8, Panamera, CLS, A7, 6er Gran Coupe etc) or (X5/X6 + M, Cayenne, ML+AMG, Q7, Q5,Q3,X1,Cajun,MLK etc.) or (1M,M3,M5,M6, 911,RS and AMG models)etc.
I agree with Human, I think porsche is def broadening its appeal, this is why you can now buy a Porsche SUV or a Porsche 4 door saloon, and I think you can also see this when you look at the new 911 with it's lengthened wheelbase to accommodate passengers better. I mean when you think about it from Porsche's point of view, who do you think they consider they're biggest competition? Ferrari? I doubt it. IMHO the more Porsche expands, the more they are zoning in on BMW.
And BMW is going to do exactly the same, going into Porsche territory. Be sure there are going to be some niche models from BMW that are not like the FWD 1er FAST/1er GT, but like the 911 or even 918 Spyder...
A little short on time but I Completely agree with Artist here.. On top of that the design, materials and quality of a Porsche surpasses BMW. Thay also has stiffer body Structures. This is the reason a Porsche is more expensive. Porsche also surpasses BMW in Quality ratings. In fact, Porsche has the highest points of any other German car. just a sample--->> JDPower.com | Panamera
BMW aren't rivals to Porsche in the truest sense, it's rivals are both Mercedes and Audi though some of their M cars do cross over and compete more directly with some of the Porsche cars like the Cayenne, Panamera and the Boxster/Cayman but the 911 for the most part has been German rival free. If anything I think it's Porsche moving into BMW backyard than the other way round.
I've always regarded the BMW M3 as a direct rival and worthy one at that to the 911. And so does motoring journalism, many 911 vs M3 comparison test. - Contradiction? That's the whole Porsche lineup! One of my favourites. Oh, just to keep it real. The above is In My Opinion :t-cheers:
I'm sure some people will consider both but here in the UK the price different is approximately £25k which is considerable. Performancewise I completely agree their appear to be rivals but for most people they are already stretching funds to get an M3 so the C2S is way out of their league. As for magazine comparison, they look to sell mags and for them a close performance battle with a clear underdog against the undisputed king is a great read.... and I agree. I love these type of vids too of which this is one of the greats.
After all the statements SCOTT has done in the forums and even the "disclosure" that the M2 will eventually get a 4cyl engine ... and because of the success of the 1M I can't believe that M is NOT developing a 1M Coupe successor.... and not just a M performance model (M235). What really bugs me, is that it seems that the M2 is again coming very late in the lifecycle of the F22. If M would really keep it's word about opening up ///M for younger audience it should develop the M2 in the same manner as the M3. Which means: F32 is coming mid 2013. F22 is also coming in 2013 - maybe some time after the F32. So if all the talk of ///M is not only blablabla they should bring the M2 to market at about the same time as the M4! This would mean: As soon as we see M4 prototypes, we should also see M2 prototypes driving around... I mean: It is a shame, that 1M production is ending now and we see no successor for more than 2 years? Who decides this? It seems being a failure to me.
