Discussion in 'Lexus' started by -=Hot|Ice=-, Apr 12, 2012.
Whichever way you look at it, the CGT is on a different level. It's very clear. End of story.
I want an LFA II. I hope till then I'll win at the lottery. Well, and now that we are talking about the Carrera GT, being half a decade old, Porsche has not brought anything better than it, and I doubt the 918 will be with all that hybrid crap (for pure sportscars only). Let them better bring back the 918 with an even better 5.7l V10. Then we can again discuss. LFA is not about numbers but about passion, just as the Carrera GT was. For me the 918 is not that, just as the upcoming F1 and maybe even F70, though we know nothing about.
LFA, Carrera GT, Zonda R, those are sportscars.
Carrera GT and LFA are in the same league, the Porsche being faster, but that has no importance. The 918 is in anotehr league, it is much faster, but technically unemotional. Get rid of the hybrid hardware, we can talk agian.
Obviously, that was an argument over straight line speed.
No doubt, LFA holds its own around the race track especially once factoring (adjusted for inflation after 8 years), the Porsche Carrera GT should even be more expensive than the much more capable Nurburgring edition LFA today.
Yamaha did a great job with the engine.
Don't put Pagani and Lexus in the same sentence. Ever.
You mean like this?
"The chassis is rock-solid...rock-solid cornering grip, and driving enjoyment.
I can also report that it easily cracks 285km/h on the autobahn, feeling like it is held down by magnets, and laps the world's toughest racetrack with more speed and precision than a Porsche."
"The engine revs rise and fall so quickly and with such a sharp timbre that it feels like a pure race engine...from 6000rpm onwards the engine produces one of the best engine notes of any car on sale. It’s similar to a V10 BMW M5, but higher pitched and a lot louder; more like a Carrera GT."
"This is mainly thanks to its extraordinary 552 bhp 4.8-litre V10 engine that does everything a Carrera GT's does and then goes mad as it closes in on 9000 rpm."
"Have now driven GT2 RS, 599 GTO and LFA round the 'Ring. Lexus was the easiest, least understeer, gave most confidence. Crucially, most enjoyable, best noise.
I think it's one of the most emotionally appealing supercars ever made.
I'd have an LFA over a CGT. I am probably not alone in thinking I thought I would never hear myself say that."
The LFA has been respectfully mentioned by disinterested parties in the same sentence with Ferraris and Lamborghinis. I think mentioning it with Porsche is not out of bounds.
If you are talking about badge, prestige then yes. But if about art of work, they are in the same league, yes Pagani, is superior, but to get something similar from a mass production maker is reasonably impossible, however Toyota did it.
No Alex, I'm not talking about prestige or badge (in which case, Pagani doesn't have history or badge, it's very young, practically unknown brand outside pistonheads)
I'm talking about work of art in fact. The LFA is a wonderful supercar, nothing else, and is nowhere in the same league as Pagani. I know Pagani uses a Mercedes engine, but every other single component on the Zonda and even more, on the Huayra are bespoke, little works of art.
And yes, Toyota/Lexus cold have something as bespoke if they want, I mean, they're one of the biggest companies on the world and the standard for quality, but the simple fact is they didn't and the LFA is not even close to be as special as the Zonda/Huayra (or the Veyron in that case)
You can see tons of cheap plastic switches in the LFA interior, a run of the mill leather work, and plain vainilla carbon fiber weaves: just compare the LFA's interior to the Zonda or the Huayra:
I appreciate you a lot Alex (we're Alfisti!) and I've nothing againts the LF-A; in fact I think it's a G-R-E-A-T supercar and sounds wonderful, but let's stop pretend is the second coming of the McLaren F1 or that it have set new benchmarks to the supercar world.
Have you ever sat inside an LFA?? Where exactly are you seeing those plastics??
Nearly every journalist who has sat inside the car has said something completely opposite. Also, LFA engine is 100% bespoke. It shares nothing with any other car and the only thing LFA shares with any other car is the navigation control joystick. That is it.
"The fit and finish in the LFA and level of fetishism in the LFA that has been lavished all over this interior, I think know no equal. It is just simply stunning! The build is stunning, the materials are stunning. It feels so special. Nothing else feels so special"
- Evo UK Chris Harris
As a matter of fact, LFA's interior won major points in the comparison test with the 599 GTB HGTE.
So then Evo magazine must be lying or must have a problem with their vision since it is absolutely opposite to what your preconceived notion of the interior is without even looking. I would believe a dignified and passionate journalist and magazine like Evo UK over the gibberish you write any day of the week.
And for the record, have you ever sat in a Zonda or Huayra?
On the other hand, I couldn't arguee against most journalist about driving, as they're probably are much more experienced than me, BUT about build, design and craftsmanship I happen to know a thing or two. I went to study industrial engineering, then lutherie (and now industrial design), worked as a metal machinist, as cabinet maker and now as luthier. I come from 4 generations of ships and cabinet woodworkers, and 5 years ago I started making musical instruments. Every damm day I work with wood, metal, cloth and leather, as we even handmake the cases (vault) for our guitars.
"Behind this keyboard", I can clearly see plastic buttons through the LFA's cabin, much more than on Zonda's and even more than on the Huayra, which seems to have no one.
Do you have the minor idea how much difficult is to cast and then mill/lathe the switches on the Huayra compared to LFA's generic ones? No, you don't.
I can see cloth ulphostery in the LFA's while I see leather in Pagani's foot well (is that spell correctly?) I can see wonderful, double stiching on Pagani's leather against single stiching on LFA's. I can see elaborate leather pieces on Pagani's seat surface compared to plain Lexus.
Have you ever worked with leather to know how much difficult is to make the double-double stich Pagani uses? No, you haven't.
I can see regular, twill carbon fiber on LFA's compared to ultra elaborate, angle-meeting woven on Pagani's. Have you studied composite materials to understand how difficult and artistic Pagani's process is compared to Lexus? No, you haven't.
Actually, for a very large company like Toyota/Lexus, it's very difficult for board members to sign off on anything like an LFA. So far, Audi can't even greenlight the Quattro concept, and that is based on an existing platform and drivetrain. Being from a larger company means you have shareholders to answer for and it's tougher to take risks to greenlight projects like the LFA. Members of the original Viper team who had formerly worked on the Corvette said that while GM has more resources, it also has huge, wasteful bureacracy. On top of that, Lexus didn't have a hand-build production line and trained craftsmen, as Pagani would have in making the Huayra; for Toyota, this was developed from the ground up. In some respects, this is the exact opposite of the "Toyota way" of total quality management, so the corporate culture is very different in how it responds to this kind of car. For an Italian exotic manufacturer, it's their bread and butter.
And let's not downplay the cost in developing an engine. Aston Martin chose to use an existing engine from which to base the One-77's engine; they said that developing an engine from the ground up would have cost as much as the entire program. Not hard to believe when you understand the costs involved in basic certification, particularly for emissions compliance and warranty coverage thereof.
The Pagani clearly has many bespoke components and luxurious materials, but its design inherently allows for huge tolerances in fit. Many components look like they are placed on top of each other, rather than as tight-fitting parts of a jigsaw puzzle, butted end to end. Sort of like how the various parts of a custom-tailored suit come together. In a similar vein, the Veyron's interior is also deceptively high quality. It lacks the double stitching and blatant metal & carbon bling of the Pagani. But its fit & finish is superb. If Pagani were tasked to build an interior to such tolerances (or like that in the LFA), I suspect they'd have a very tough time. This is probably a big reason why Autocar commented of the LFA:
"The attention to detail, and production is absolutely first rate. Open the doors, bonnet or boot and you’ll find exposed carbonfibre, but carbon that it is so beautifully finished you find yourself staring at it.
Similarly the interior is incredibly well finished, with a mixture of leather, carbon, aluminium and a super high tech TFT screen rev-counter. The best detail though are the pedals which simply exquisite – each one a single piece of forged aluminium. So the typical Lexus virtues of quality and refinement are very much intact in even this, its most extreme model...it is more solidly constructed than anything Italian."
This applies to the precision feel of the switchgear, the haptic feedback in the right-side shift paddle being weighted differently from the left.
"Its interior is also remarkable. It's sensationally well made. It has easily the best door handles and indicator stalks I've ever used, and the dials in the instrument display are powered by tiny motors and so glide across the binnacle in the most gloriously pointless way."
Yes, there is cost in the milled instrument dials of the Huayra, but how do you know their supplier isn't supplying lots of similar items to other clients (hot-rod shops, custom bikes, yachts, etc.)? There is probably also quite some cost to Lexus to develop that customizable TFT display with the sliding ring; aside from needing design and electromechanical engineering, you'd need software to ensure it operates just as the designer intended and with complete functionality with the car's subsystems connected to it. Electronics can be very buggy. Just look at BMW's headaches with the first generation iDrive. It (and everything else inside the LFA) has to operate with the smoothness and durability expected from Lexus; the LFA's warranty is like any other Lexus. Which is to say, longer than most handbuilt exotics.
Lexus should not waste their time on another super cars until they have sorted out their lineup. Audi are a prime example of how to use a halo car properly. Build one and follow up with some banging and sexy cars for customers who have been lured into showroom floors.
Maybe I am wrong by comparing the LFA to the Huayra, but I can't really judge the Pagani, because eventhough I love all the passion that was put in this car, it is just not of my taste. Do you get what I mean? Take a Rolex, maybe the best watch in the world (I am not a watch guy so I don't know anything about watches), but they are just not of my taste.
So, if I compared the LFA to the Huayra, it is just to point how much more bespoke the LFA is compared to Ferrari/Porsche/Lamborghini, not that is something like a Pagani. Of Course it could not be otherwise for the LFA, because Toyota has no backgrounds for such a car, so everything needed to be done from a white sheet.
I do not put the LFA on the same level as a Pagani, just above Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini. Is it faster? No. But it is a whole package that no other has. If you look at the Alfa 8C built by Ferrari, it was not bad, but IMO built by Toyota (following the LFA conception) it would be much better (I am not talking about desing). Of course we know whats the best. (hint: HP).
Why are you guys bringing up excuses, if Toyota this or Toyota that , or the investor, or the lack of groundback in supercar making?
I'm not judging Toyota/Lexus, and don't care if they could or not make something in the level of Pagani. I just said Pagani was in another league, some of you told me it wasn't the case and now I see arguments about investors and lack of experience, which further proof my point.
And Alex, no, I'm not talking about beauty, is perfectly understable if you don't like the Huayra, but to say the LFA was in the same league as Zonda/Huayra is too fanboy-blind.
By the way, and about the fit and finish tolerance, check the green circle, thats what I call a massive gap: (and in blue circles, the run of the mill switches/controls):
And I read something about the pedals? Don't get me started comparing the LFA's pedals against Pagani.
I insist, lots of respect to the LFA and my hat off, but com'on, is nowhere near close as a work of art, to a Pagani, whatever the reason/argument we can use.
I am not saying they are in the same league. But they are both very special. I don't think Mercedes, Porsche or Ferrari have done anything close to that. Not even Aston Martin (One-77?) or Lamborghini. I am not a fanboy and blindly support something I like. Before I didn't give a sh*t about Lexus. But the LFA is just beyond any of the usual cars. Paganis are not usual, but Porsche and Ferraris yes, that is why for me the LFA is tending towards Pagani direction.
I couldn't resist:
Zonda Cinque (two pedals, as LFA's)
LFA engine bay:
Zonda F engine bay:
Huayra engine bay:
LFA controls cluster:
And then, with Pagani, you close the deal with il capo of the factory, Horatio Pagani himself, with his own signature on every damm car, plus get some wonderful hand made shoes and baggages.
The Lexus? Not even remotely close.
Also, the 458, Gallardo or 911 may be run of the mill supercars, but the Enzo, Veyron, or Carrera GT are as bespoke as the LFA, nothing more or less. Don't come tell me the LFA is more "special" than a F40, F50 or Enzo, a Porsche Carrera GT or the all mighty Veyron.
PS: the fanboy thing wasn't for you Alex.
Let's have a good french wine :t-cheers:
I agree. Nonetheless, if I had the possibility, the first thing I'd get would be an LFA.
Actually, the engine in both the Enzo and F40 aren't really all that bespoke. The Enzo's engine was used in the MC12 and is the basis for the 599 and variants. It has a bespoke tub (so long as you don't include the MC12), but that wasn't done in-house like the LFA's. It's the same supplier as provided the CGT's tub. And interior-wise, the CGT's gauges and steering wheel look not so different from a Boxster's.
These are not excuses, but explanations. From your statement with regard to Toyota's resources, you made it sound like Toyota should be making a car as good as the Pagani when in fact, no major mainstream car maker has done so profitably. Audi has a good halo car in the R8, but it's nothing like a Pagani (and shares drivetrain from other cars). Seen the interiors in some other halo cars? GT-R, Viper, ZR1, etc. Simply because a car company is huge does not mean it should excel at making supercars. They excel at making mass-produced cars like Corollas and Malibus. Would it be "making an excuse" for Pagani to show how they are incapable of making a car like a Corolla? Not at all. There are very good explanations why Pagani would not excel at that.
As far as the gap in the CF panel you circled above, that is because that is the shutline between door and dashboard. Both are on the same plane and being carbon-meeting-carbon, there has to be some gap. Companies like Pagani hide this gap in the corner and don't even attempt a great fit; the parts aren't in the same plane and as I said appear to be placed on top of each other. Check the massive difference in contours between the lower footwell panel and door of the Huayra interior here:
The Koenigsegg also has a hand-crafted interior, and a similar co-planar area where the dash and door meet. But they have the advantage of using leather to meet leather, and still don't produce the kind of fit as the carbon-on-carbon fit of the LFA:
I could also bring up the massive panel gaps in the Huayra's front and rear hatches and it would be as pointless as bringing up the gap between the CF dash and door of the LFA. The Huayra's pedals look more artistic, but I doubt they cost that much more to actually make. The LFA's look more robust and if you know anything about daily driving floor-hinged pedals, the Pagani's looks like it will introduce lots of crud in there.
Guibo my friend, why do you keep bringing more manufacturers to this party? I don't care what Koenigsegg does or not, we are not discussing them. Are you trying to justify your argument by pointing what Koenigsegg makes too?
And also, the "look more robust and get less dirt/crud" is as childish as it gets. Come on Guibo, I respect you a lot, I know you can give me a more solid argument. Also, I don't think LFA's pedals are more expensive, because Pagani's pedals haven been milled and polish. LFA's are way rawer.
Finally, trying to point that Enzo and Carrera GT are less special than the LFA because they third party their carbon fiber tub development/manufacturing is completely incongruent, because Lexus did the same with the engine (Yamaha).
I don't think a car has to be 100% bespoke (which is almost imposible, by the way) to be "special" or vice versa.
The MP4-12C is also a "bespoke" supercar, but that doesn't put it on par with the Lexus, for example (I think the Lexus is WAY more special than the Macca). Or in the other hand, arguably the best supercar ever, the McLaren F1 had a BMW engine, so following your logic of not being completely bespoke, is less special than the Lexus......