BMW and the M...past, present, and future, what does it mean to you.

In light of the discussion about BMW and what it stands for (Yes, I know the abbreviations stand for "Bayerische Motor Werks", so no smarty-pants remarks ) in this thread http://www.germancarforum.com/scott27s-info-channel/30293-shock-secret-new-bmw-car-spied-15.html I figured that it deserves its own thread. This post is a bit ponderous, unwieldy, and bit scattered, but bear with it and I'll try to be as concise and clear as possible....

To me BMW was one of the first car brands I liked since I was a kid. I was a fan of the 1980s 6-series and it's aggressive stance. As I got older I became aware of its sporting nature and how it valued engineering know-how. It simply marketed itself as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" and backed it up with the 2002, 3.0 CSL, the M1 and it's M line-up. Eventually that know-how would trickle down the more mainstream line-up. They provided a car that was fun to drive and could seat 4 people comfortably. Essentially they popularized the idea of a 4-door sports sedan more than any other brand. BMW not only just seemed to position itself as an engineering that put a precedence on efficiency, but also a company that put a priority on pushing the boundaries on design. They tend to embrace more avant-garde lines that made them more accessible than their chief rival, Mercedes-Benz. That's not to say that MB did not value design or engineering efficiency/prowess, but when I saw a Benz, I would think of a more stately individual in an overly starched suit. Essentially, I thought it was car brand that's perfect for my father. Now I hope that I did not inadvertently start another MB vs. BMW (vs. Audi vs ______) war as that's not my intention in the slightest. As wishy-washy as at may sound, I'm a fan of the "Big Deutch 3" and appreciate what they each bring to the table and how they push the other one to be better in the name of competition. Ok, now I'm digressing....

Now that I spoke fondly of BMW's past, I'm sure I'm roiled up in nostalgia and probably ignored BMW's past missteps. Now we are in the present. And with that, BMW's line up has at least doubled, if not tripled, in count from what it was about 15 years ago. They offer cars in segments that did not exist 15 years ago. Now, how does this play out for BMW?
BMW, first and foremost, is a business with investors and employees that have to be paid and profit to be made, so survivability and flourishing is priority numero uno. But with expansion, is the brand being diluted or simply re-branding themselves, i.e. BMW is the ultimate driving machine but we also do _____(fill in the blank)? I think it's core value with non-M cars there's a greater degree of flexibility thus they can offer, say a cross-tourer, and still retain it's "BMW-ness." However, in their sub-brands such as their M cars, there's a different story. Sub-brands are created with a focused principle or philosophy in mind. In the case with the M cars the principles were to make sedans and coupes that were uncompromised in performance. They would take lessons that were applied in Motorsport (if I remember, that's what the M stands for...a little sarcasm) and apply it to production vehicles. Technologies include, but not limited to making the core BMW vehicle more powerful and perform on par with actual sports cars. SAVs are ponderous and heavy and even with the latest gizmos, such as torque-vectroring, are still SAVs. Can we honestly say that an X6 would perform on par with a 911? No. While I'm aware that an X6 and the 911 they are not in the same class, neither is an M3/M5 sedans and the 911. But those 2 sedans can certainly hold their own versus a dedicated sports car. I remember Gerard Richter famously saying that an SAV or a car with a slushbox are not part of the M philosophy. I understand that times have changed. And with time people change, such is the case with Herr Richter no longer the head of the M Division. And also with time, business models need to adapt to current situations and demands in order to maintain sustainability. With BMW's mainstream products, there's a significant breadth to what this brand can offer and the niches it can occupy as long it presents itself with a vehicle with some sporting pretense. With it's mainstream line, new principles can be introduced, such as Efficient Dynamics, which is an initiative that I personally applaud. However, with a sub-brand there ought to be a philosophy that should be adhered closely with little compromises being made, otherwise it's just another mainstream BMW with a more powerful engine, slightly different trim and nicer wheels. What's so special about that? Coming back to the M-version of the X's, that's how it appears. From a short-term business point of view, marketing the X's as being part of the M family is great because the ///M label is storied and thus guarantee more sales when it busts out on to the market, but what does that do to the durability of the ///M label in the long-run? Also was the X considered to labeled differently, such as how the large 8-series performance was called the 850CSi?

Some may seem this to be veiled attack on the inclusion of SAVs in the M line-up. And, in a way, you're right, I won't try to hide the fact that I'm pretty annoyed when principles are compromised. But I do understand the business necessity to do that. Profit's to be made, but at the expense of compromising principles? Now as I conclude this long-winded "dissertation" I would like to leave you guys with a few things to ponder....As BMW aficionados on a car-centric message board, do we represent a minority in the vast population? Also, as cheesy as it may sound, what does BMW, M, etc. represent to you?
Respond in whatever manner you want but let's avoid a brand war, it just get's us nowhere.:t-cheers:

Very eloquently put, with out the usual hand thrashing you see around here.

As for my opinion on this whole issue. For me, it is the individual cars that count, more than the brand. If a car is class leading, I am automatically gravitated towards it - exactly why I love the GTR now when I don't give a rat's ass about Nissan. Same deal with M, as long as M3 is class leading I will like it. I don't see how M building an SUV suddenly diminishes the capabilities of M3. Will I spend my hard earned money on it - no, cause that is not the experience I am looking for but I understand others might be and BMW is trying to cater to them. The fact that the X5/6 M is class leading in it's own class is just icing on the cake (which is more than what you can say for some of the other M products like M6 convertible). Of course, tomorrow if they stopped making M3s and all they did were SUVs (and I doubt that will happen), I will be disappointed and would just take my business somewhere else.

Times change and so does people. New products cater for NEW needs - men use cosmetics these days that are marketed as e.g. 'Nivea Men' - for example. I beleive that one Brand Name - in keeping up with trends and preference and catering to different needs is an expansion of the brand not only for economies of scale but in broadening the reach of any brand/product. BMW is one brand with a rich tradition. BMW expanded early years to introduce ///M as a marketing tool and catering to needs for 'road going sport cars' - well if there ever was such a thing really!?
Now, with an SUV market that has expanded and grown over the past decade, BMW got on that bus again and it was a HUGELY wise an profitable desicion. Today the marketing of SUV as an ///M product was just the next step in satisfying ME, MYSELF and I....I love SAV's...And I aspire to SAV ///M. I thank BMW for catering to my needs! One brand - BMW - with many offerings AND.....WHY CAN'T or MAY they - BMW not offer ///M across the their ENTIRE range????????? Why the F**** not?

A BMW is a BMW, was a BMW and will be a BMW - it does not matter in ANY way if it's a coupe, convertable, sedan, SAV or i-setta...DOES IT?

NO IT DOES NOT - It's a BMW.

Why not produce a BMW ///M Bike?????????????????????HUH? Why not?:t-hands:

:worshbmw:

Past: Superb
Present: Not so bad
Future: Worrying

S1000 RR, in BMW car land, that bike would translate to E92 M3 CSL Plus

Anyways, no disrespect towards this thread or anything, but I'll skip the responses. I can already read in almost every single BMW thread what the members think, since they spew that info non-stop all the time......Just_Me doesn't like the X models and big cars, Merc1 doesn't like anything from BMW, AdvEvo wants race cars only, HoH wants bigger cars than the 7er with spinning 24", etc.

^Does that bike REALLY keep up with the Ducati 1098R or the Yamaha R1..
Or do ppl here just think it looks fly and assume its better?

Cause as of now the Ducati Desmodici is as close as you come to a M3 CSL PLUS in the motorbike world..

Google it I would say. It's awesome.

Yamaha R1:

998cc
182 PS @ 12,500rpm.
Weight: 206 kg (incl fluids)
112.7 Nm @ 10,000rpm


BMW S1000 RR:

999.00 cc
190.42 HP (139.0 kW) @ 13000 RPM.
Weight: 206 kg (incl fluids, including traction control)
112.00 Nm @ 9750 RPM

On paper, the BMW is superior in every aspect.

^ Its very hard to decide for now.. the BMW is to new..

But one thing is for sure..its DAMN ugly..
to bad it didnt look like the Race bike..

You and I see beauty in a completely different way. It's no point argueing.
You did however manage to find the ugliest pic in the worst color and angle, so bravo. I could counter with many awesome shots, but I will not. Motorbike discussion has to end right here

I can cope with BMW going Turbo BUT if they start to just upgrade a current engine and use the same suspension from the normal version but slighly stiffer (just like they did with X6M) then its really really bad.
A M need its own unique engine, just like the past, and it need to be built with passion and have a 'soul'.
I also dislike if M is becoming what AMG used to be, meaning comfort over sport and its sounds like this is the route BMW are going. Next generation M5 is very crucial for me.

Future: worrying and despair

One thing is for certain...BMW has to invest some of the extra money from their F1 depature to satisfy M customers needs....Scott & EnI has to read and listen...HARDCORE and REAL and ORIGINAL ///M is what your customers want BMW!!! Are you listening???

klier i am not only into race cars

i have e90 m3 and it is een very good car. Happy with it. I know it s not an 911 GT3 but i don t want that. The engine is a masterpiece. No 6 cil biturbo can match that. Even if it had 800 nm torque. Thru bmw ///M buyer s are not looking for torque we are buying M cars for high rpm.

I like fast sedans hatchbacks coupe s which i can use daily. That s why i drive bmw.

I have enjoyed my e46 m3. My e36 M3 and even my non //M car 130i.

I am also concerned about the future of bmw and M. My mean concern is turbo. The 135i lot s of you find it a very good engine. But this engine has nothing to do with ///M motorsport and the same counts for X5 and X6 M.

Turbo s are nice for daily driving the torque is nice. But it won t give you the sensation of 8500rpm atmo engine. That will set youre hair on fire. That s how an engine should work. A turbo engine won t give it to you that way.

So i am really really concerned about what s happening to ///M will it definiatly loose it s motorsport hart. I am not buying an 6 cil biturbo //M3. I keep my v8 as long as possible and enjoy as long as i can. Let s just hope they make us high rev 1 serie s ///M just for us enthusiasts and put the turbo s in cars were it doesn t matter like big 5 and 7 series .

Most common remarks about X6M:

- Disappointing engine sound
- Feels like normal X6 to drive
- Cayenne, still the sportiest SUV
- Reviewers left the X6M somewhat disappointed and wanting a different driving experience after they return the car.

X6M share same components with normal X6 (engine, suspension) and is equipped with runflats. M3/M5 has always had their own unique engine and more advanced suspension and a unique driving experience. X6M has failed in the most important areas, its soulless car.

one more thing, I have been suffering from BMWs 35i engine. Too many mechanical problems, I got power reduced message today which will lead to the 4th dealer visit for the same damn issue.

air duct replaced
some hoses for the boost control (if I got it correctly)
fuel pump issues
overheating
... etc

It is not my car only, almost all newly turbo'd BMWs have the same exact issues and there is nothing to do about it ..

In this hot climate, I'd only go for NA at the moment. no turbo would live this weather.

just something worth mentioning, cayenne TT has a fuel pump issue but that is world wide even in colder europe.