SCANS AutoBild Sportscars - Audi S4 vs. BMW 335i, Mercedes C350 & Volkswagen CC 3.6

Good call. That was pretty much the only time S and M were "put together". It was a weird move from Audi to put that big V8 in a S version. It made a whole lot of horsepower and was suddently up there with the M3 output. But it was no where near the M3 performance. Just to 100km/h it was 0.5 secs behind, and heavy as hell in front. So that was a car in nomansland for Audi. It was supposed to be under the RS4, but since the RS4 B6 never came, insteas we had to wait for the B7, the S4 V8 remained a A4 with a big engine.

I don'r know what the heck you are rambling, 335i ddin't even exist for most of B6/7 S4's life cycle. For most of B6/7 S4's life cycle it competed directly with E46 M3. Come time to replace it, BMW upped the power - anti while Audi didn't. Now M3 is way above S4, while top of the line vanilla 3er is bumping gainst S4.

But historically S4 didn't compete directly against normal 3er either ever. B5 S4 had 265 HP, while E36 M3 had 321HP and top of the line normal E36 3er (328i) had just 190HP, putting S4 again between the M3 and the normal 3er like it is today. In fact, in the US, where the E36 M3 had only 240HP and B5 S4 had 250HP they even competed directly. Even before that, B4 S2 had 230HP while the first ever S4 (based on C4) also had 230HP vs E30 M3's 195HP (230 HP for Evo).

^ The reason I said B6/7 S4 is because it's a one model with minor facelift, the FL came in at 2005/6 whilst the 335i was introduced in 2006....to me this suggests the both models shared significate time as competitors. Just because each brand production cycle is out of time with each other does mean their respective product aren't competing.

Hardly rambling as this is only a difference of two opinions don't you think. :t-cheers:

P.S.
Historically speaking the S and M were mostly competitors but the introduction of the E90 series changed all that forever I feel..............people can't live in the past they must move on.

Code:

            
                 3er,     A4       S4            M3        RS4
E30/B4           169HP    172HP    230HP (S2)    230HP     315HP (RS2)    -
E36/B5           190HP    190HP    265HP         320HP     380HP
E46/B6/7         230HP    250HP    344HP         343HP     420HP
E90/B8           300HP       -     333HP         420HP     450HP

Some one look at this table and tell me with a straight face S4 histrorically competed with top of the line normal 3er...

May be you should tell Tumbo that, who maintains S4 competed with top of the normal 3 historically and not M. And yes, it changed with E90/B8S4, cause Audi didn't give S4 the usual power bump every successive model usually gets dropping it into the same performance realm as normal 3er.

I think we all questioned Audi's decision to not bump but actually drop the power between the B7 to B8 but we shouldn't have worried because they clearly knew what they were doing. In fact I would lay money on that it's replacement will not increase it's power either, instead PTW will increase due to dramatic weight lose.

this comment is just taking stupidity to the next level

but i think the main point that 335i cant compete with s4 is because it doesnt have sporty diff, it has simple suspension and brakes and other stuff, like m package which isnt even available yet, 335i is a simple 3 series, while s4 is sporty a4. we really have to wait for m335i to have all the goodies to compete with s4

The true S4 rival is the 335iM/Sport not doubt about it the fact that Audi offer a Sportsdiff means little cause it's an option and not standard equipment like with an M3, if BMW chose not to offer it on their normal 335i this isn't Audi's concern and nor should if diminish the fact that these two cars are rivals. You also make claims that Audi's suspension is somehow vastly superior but it's little different that a normal A4 in design, yes you can order it with adaptive dampers but the same is true of the F30, brakes is possibly the one real difference but based on each cars stopping ability I don't see the S4 having a huge advantage here either..........the simple truth is that the S4 is a slightly better example of a performance car than the current 335i Sport which might be addressed by the M/Sport but I think the M335i price and performance will position it beyond either of the others and drop it firmly inbetween the S and the RS/M.

Your comment above was the one that was stupid. From my comment, what has personal opinion has to do with "stupidity"? You should read in between the lines before you make comment like that. I know many people that love BMWs for their design and engines, but dont like the interiors at all. Should I call them up and say "Hey dumbass, how are you"?

Think.

Good history lesson. I was most comparing from the B5 and so on. Cause before that, the only RS car out there, was the RS2 Porsche. And it was way to unique. So yeah, when you go back to the C4 and S2 B4, I agree that they were competitors. But it stopped when Audi made the RS4 B5 and so on. Then the S versions always competed with the 330/335. (Ecxeption the S4 B6 V8).

Good history here, huh?

Of course a sportdifferential makes a difference against a car without it. Add it to the 335i and traction would be a lot better than the standard 335i. Have there ever been a test when S4 dont have it included?

you said that you think that bmw interiors are horrible and youhate them because they are dark and boring? isnt that stupid? last time i heard you can option other colors than dark ones in bmw...

Yes, dark and boring is what I meant. Most of the normal interiors are to dark and boring, and by that I mean for example also the lighting of the gauges etc. I know that you can order special colors if you want, but the "normal" cars, with no specials, are really dark and boring. Imo BMW is still far behind Audi, Mercedes and Porsche, which I think have the best interiors. Quality wise as well.

well i think that this is blasphemy what you just said, but we must agree to disagree

Biased against Porsche and Mercedes too, you mean? That I find equally good as BMW? Sorry man, it has nothing to do with bias here. I just dont like the design of the BMW interiors, the quality and the colors. And I know this has been a problem for Beemers last years. If they will look like the new M6 though, then they will win me over.

i agree on e60, e90 and other bangle era interiors, that is the reason i wouldnt upgrade from e39 to e60, just because i hate the interior and i dont really like exterior of e60. but new bmw interior are abosulely stunning, uberergonomical and now can easily compete with other german manufacturers. and if you like m6 interior, then most other bmw interiors are pretty much the same just differ in size

Everything Tumbo said is true about the past but the new 7/6/5/3/1 are with high quality materials and not worse than the competition anymore. Car reviewers are usually rating BMW interior quality with same points as the competition, sometimes better. Tumbo clearly havent taken a closer look at the cars I mentioned above. If he has then he is blinded by hate

Regarding interior design, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.

What is wrong with the quality? From that horribly low-resolution photograph of the M Performance package (probably screen-captured from a pdf brochure?), I can make out Alcantara, carbon and metal accents. AutoBild ranked the Audi only 1 point higher than the BMW on a 15-pt scale. Is that such a big difference? I don't think so. If the BMW interior is "horrible" then wouldn't that make the Audi interior at least "bad?"
Not so sure the interior of the 3er has been a problem. Are E9x sales down from the E46? I've sat in an E90 M3 and while it was dark as specified, there's little doubting the quality of materials. Even the E8x 1er had pretty decent materials overall. Options of real wood and real aluminum pieces (which weren't even available in Porsches of the time, Porsche instead preferring painted plastics). No leather-wrapped dashboard or optional Alcantara headlining but I think that's reasonable at that price point.

Sorry man, I don't think you still get it. S4 never ever competed with normal 3er before the B8 S4. Period. S4 always made comparable power to M3 before B8 S4. The only sort of exception was B5 S4 and E36 M3. Even their B5 S4 made similar power to E36 M3 initially (265HP vs 280HP) but then in 95 E36 M3 got a mid life power bump from 280 to 320HP leaving S4 behind. But even then S4 never competed with normal E36 3er (which made just 190HP and Audi also had a 190HP A4). Audi always had a A4 that made similar power to normal 3er before B8. It is only with B8, Audi decided to delegate S4 to something far below M3 and drop the V6 powered A4 completely.

I can't put it any more plainly, so if you still don't get it, I can't help.

^Are you suggesting that the E90 335i didn't compete on level terms with the B7 S4 cause I would, if anything it was a better balanced package offer more performance from less fuel. The B6 S4 might have competed directly with the E46 M3 but due to their differing production cycles the B7 S4 ended up competing not against another M3 but a more normal 335i.