I can see that also. They are really good looking cars and there is still something about saying you own a "Jaguar", but for me when it comes to the other apects like the technical side they fall short. I've always wanted an XK Cabrio myself. Such a slick car. M
Owning one and actually coming out of an M3 into an XF I can tell you that it feels nothing like a German car, but I don't agree that makes it worse because within a couple of weeks I got use to its more laid back driving style and quickly started to appreciate some of the things where it was superior to them. There's a few things I really liked about the Jag which really did make driving more comfortable, the seat base extends instead of just the small front section of the seat which Germans do and the fact you car turn off the heating of the base of the seat whilst keeping the back heater on, small things I know but I really miss them. Also it's steering though light compared to most German brands still retained plenty of feel, likewise the feel from the brakes were more progressive. I didn't notice these things to begin with and would be missed by most test drives but they did make it a pleasure to own. It's very easy to dismiss the Jag if you've never owned or driven one but ask any owner of an XF (any model) and I'm sure they will speak very fondly of them. I for one will be first in line to test drive its replacement and whilst on this occasion even I would pick the M5 because it's technically more advanced, more spacious and has superior residuals but I'm sure when it's replacement arrives and remember it will be almost entirely alloy it will give the M5 no mercy and i bet it will be heading back to Germany with its tail between it's legs.
Just an example: ---->> Luxury V-8 midsizers: BMW 550i vs. Infiniti M56 vs. Jaguar XF - Boston Overdrive - Boston.com Most of these Journalists are saying BMW is using too many electronic nannies to "enhance" driving dynamics when it`s not needed.
^But that is the 550i on runflats which should represent a different driving dynamic to the M5. The XF-R's suspension is also electronically adaptable. I don't think anyone here is debating the difference in feel and involvement. It is the magnitude of that difference in the face of everything else taken together. In the Autocar test that you linked to, their consensus, with everything taken into account, was that the XF-R wasn't better than the M5. And bear in mind that Steve Sutcliffe isn't beyond rooting for the home team, which in itself is no bad thing; all else being equal, one should take pride in the product of one's own home country IMO, so long as the larger picture isn't lost.
^ Goods points and well taken.. although Autocar didn`t say the XFR wasn`t better, but about equal. I believe the M5 is a better all-around package to be exact...
^ The Autocar test shows that different people come to different conclusion which ultimately mean you need to drive to decide which suits you best. All I know is after driving an XFR and being blown away by it that if the M5 is as good or as most tests suggest its better then it's one hell of a machine. P.S. Just so you know the XF is based on the old S-Type chassis, that car came out 13 years ago. Now just imagine what Jaguar could do with a brand new chassis.
^ lOl, The E63 AMG spanked the M5 and XFR in that test, without the PP! .. I agree though. Most of us need to take these cars for a back to back spin....
Or perhaps the Autocar test shows that those with a justified predisposition toward the home town product can, at least momentarily, set their natural biases aside. This is something that AE may have a problem doing, as the Evoque vs C-Class and now this test seem to suggest. I mean, do you see any wood in that XF-R interior? One might have reckoned that the alloy XJ may have rewritten the rules of the class and destroyed the competition, but that was not to be, was it? I think your bet that the M5 "will be heading back to Germany with its tail between it's legs" is perhaps a little premature because we have no idea of what the XF will be like, nor will we know exactly what revisions BMW may have in mind for the M5 in an update. I seem to recall you acknowledged that you were premature in your prediction of the RS5 having its way with the M3...
I see the whole British bias thing is very hard to let go of. OK for an easy life and to keep the thread on rail I'll forget that one. In my opinion I can see why their might have given the Jag the win, after totaling up their respective marks for both cars they found things to be pretty even so give the resulting win to the Jag because of British pride. I can only speak from my own experiences of owning an XF after countless German cars both before and after it and also driving the XFR at one of Jag's invitation days, it's a bloody amazing car to pilot, you can complain about the 2D satnav and it's interior style but none of these things effect the way it drives which it does very well indeed plus you get far more kit for less outlay compared to the M5. I personally would pick the M5 but I won't be complaining or bashing AE for picking in their opinion the better car. RS5 and M3 is a different story, but even you can't deny that what Jaguar have achieved with a 13 yrs old chassis is little short of a miracle. Oh and as for the XJ, in my opinion it wipes the floor with the competition, it has a sweetness of balance and delicacy to it's steering that the German cars can only dream of. It's not perfect because in SWB form it's still cramped and the boot could be better but else where it near enough perfect in my eyes.
XF is amazing for it's 13yo chassis and the XJ has the best steering in it's class that's for sure and I agree with you ,Deckhook BUT as I said XF is far from being better than the M5 in anything other than exterior design and price
The M5 wins hands down on speed, cornering grip, space and technology where as the XFR wins on steering, entertainment, looks, equipment and price. But the problem is that we don't know what AE was looking from the two cars? I think too many people are criticising AE's decision without even driving both cars, we all know the M5 has won many fans among the press but it hasn't won universal acclaim in every area, you might drive and not rate it that great, I might drive it and think its stunning.... like I say different strokes for different folk.
It's not anymore hard to let go of than answering a simple question: Do you see any wood in that interior? Please highlight them for me and post the picture. If it's because of British pride, then they should come right out and say it. Not blow up a disparity in the involvement (or interior warmth) such that it overrides everything else. How is the RS5 vs M3 a different story? You made a prediction. It blew up in your face. The "miracle" you're talking about probably has a lot to do with the fact that the XF-R has been tuned for gnarly British roads while the M5 hasn't (surprising?). It's probably softer overall, whereas the M5, perhaps being tuned for the smoother roads of Germany, might show up the XF-R's aging chassis when tested in that environment. On top of that, the standard F10 has been criticized for its aloof steering so perhaps it's not a point in favor of Jaguar doing amazing things, but perhaps more of a point against BMW for dropping the ball. Your seem all too willing to believe in English-made "miracles," when there are plenty of sound engineering reasons for why things are the way they are. It's not black magic. In any case, your earlier concern about the XF-R having the better ride didn't pan out in this review; the M5 seems to be every bit as comfortable as the XF-R. And I'm talking about the old XJ which debuted the alloy body many, many years ago. Dynamically, it didn't send any car back to Germany with its tail between its legs despite the innate weight advantage. and economy, safety, residuals, included servicing price, a wider dealer network (even in Jaguar's own home country), a better transmission.
Since when is the M5 a supercar? It's not a super car in my book. That would make the E63 a super car* My question here is, if the M5 lost to the XF-R in normal trim, The XF-RS will wipe the floor with the M5. *Depending on your definition of 'Super car'. As far as a 'drivers luxo barge' I'd probably purchase an XJ with the A8 second. P.S. This test just proves that ///M is no longer what it use to be. It lost to the E63 in a group test, and now it's lost to a XF-R(Not the rumored upcoming XF-RS that seems to be coming with 550 HP)
There are twice as many winnings for the M5 than the car have lost tests. You see a few tests and you say M5 is not what it used to be, really? New M5 is a superior car to M5 E60. BMW did listen to their customers and the new M5 is exactly the way the customers want their new M5 to be.
Steering... yeah ofcourse. Just imagine a Lotus luxury sedan... it for sure will beat M5s steering but you might hear "some" squeaking coming from the doors and dashboard even on the test drive before you buy it. Back to the XF-R vs. M5... What about reliability, quality of materials used, fuel economy, safety... There are better handling and better looking cars than everything the germans have to offer... but there is a reason why "Made in Germany" stands for guaranteed quality in most of the cases :t-cheers:
