Discussion in '6 Series' started by tristatez28lt1, May 4, 2012.
And you are familiar enough with the BMW line up and it's models?
Btw, BMW is not spelled VAG.
And how many BMWs have you owned?
I'm not as familiar with BMW as I am with VAG products but I know enough and far more than with Merc.
If you haven't read one word of my posts, then how do you know I "still won't accept it?" If there's really nothing more you can say on the matter, quit posting.
Do I have to in order to show the fallacy behind the 20k price difference being attributed soley to style/image? No, I don't. Clearly there is more behind the story. Whether the CLS vs E-Class difference is similar is sort of beside the point, because if you had bothered to read that Car Magazine review, it says BMW seems to want to position the 6er GC more as a Panamera competitor rather than a CLS competitor. Isn't this what EnI was saying earlier? Think about it:
Stats and pricing suggest something more closely aligned to the Panamera than to the CLS
Planned volume for the UK is around 700 units (per the PH article)
Check sales or new vehicle registrations of various models in the UK last year:
CLS - 3,380
A7 - 2,560
Panamera - 750
Tell me, Deckhook: Of the three models listed above, which one is BMW's target of 700 most close to?
Based on all of this, and based on the lack of any calculation on your part suggesting that BMW must follow MB/Audi's pricing model, why do you continue to insist that BMW must follow MB/Audi's pricing model? Where is this written? You have been asked several times for this and similar information, yet you continue to decline to provide the answer. Is this because you have no such information? If this is so, please come right out and say it.
Good grief, you're like the Duracell bunny.
I think I already said that pricing it to compete with the Panny was brave, IMO BMW don't have the kudos to compete on their pricing level because on every other product they sell they price directly against both Audi and Mercedes.
Oh what the heck, I've said my bit and if someone is foolish enough to throw upward of £30k away within the first year then who am I to complain, I'll happily pick up one clean low mileage example for a song and be a very happy bunny. lol
At this point it is futile to even continue the discussion. Guibo is not all of a sudden going to accept a different point of view. Neither should he. He's entitled to his own opinion. We've all made our thoughts clear. To constantly repost the same thoughts over and over again is pointless.
Says the guy who claims to get a new car every year.
Where's that darned karma button?
Not claiming matey.
It is pointless, so why don't you offer something new to this discussion rather than trying to insult people with references to the Duracell bunny? Speaking of which, you seem to enjoy going nearly post for post against me (while sidestepping issues that are germaine to this discussion), so what does that make you? Are you here to attack people, or are you here to discuss cars so that we might get some understanding of where BMW are coming from?
Here's a start (for both you and for Deckhook): Based on what we know from statements previously posted in this thread, plus information about planned volume targets for the UK, plus the lack of any equation stipulating a lower threshold for what is considered "allowable profiteering," plus no known sales record for the model in question, plus your own acknowledgement that the GC is produced in far lower volumes than a 5er, upon what do you base your assertion that the 6er GC is overpriced? Or is your mind completely made up that the GC is overpriced regardless of BMW actually meeting their sales goals? You can't pin a 20k difference on image/styling against the "equivalent 5er" because the equivalent 5er lacks some of the things that are standard kit on the 6er GC, which is only dearer by 13k when the equivalent 5er is optioned up accordingly. 13k does not seem to me to be asking a lot for a much rarer car, that delivers a different body style and lower coupe-like seating than the 5er.
Deckhook, it remains to be seen whether BMW's "lack of kudos" is not enough to overcome the looks of the Panamera, which some have said is downright ugly. It doesn't really matter if BMW go head to head with Audi/Merc in other areas. When Audi/MB had their A2/A&B Klasse, BMW maintained the RWD 1er. BMW built a one-off aluminum engineering exercise in the Z8, for which Audi/MB had what to counter? Now BMW have the upcoming i-cars made from CF composite structures, which as far as I know are not being used in the structures of Audi/MB offerings. Point being, a niche doesn't have to be occupied by traditional rivals for a car to make sense.
Guys, if you don't have anything more to add in your arguments, please let's put an end to this discussion. It won't lead anywhere.
Wait, what, BMW is charging a ludicrous 26% more for a different body style? I am sure vaunted Audi would never do that.... ahem, cough, sputter... RS3 and TT RS? Same engine, same platform except one is way more practical and cheaper. TTRS base price - 46000 GBP, RS3 − 40000 GBP, but that is only 15% more - see, VAG is a benevolent corporation, not bend on ripping of it's customers like big bad BMW. Yea, except RS3 comes with S tronic, 19" wheels and nav as standard unlike TT RS. Add those to TT RS and it's price balloons to 50000 GBP - a 25% hike over RS3. Oh, oops, where is the outrage now? Grand proclamations of Audi blatantly overcharging and not respecting it's 'core' customers?
Thanks for sharing.
I'm really into my browns at the moment and this Frozen Bronze looks incredible.
Only negative is the cleaning routine involved.
Expanding a bit on "kudos," the 7 Series doesn't have the kudos of Porsche, yet that model did well last year in the UK. The single best selling Panamera was the diesel, which had 302 new registrations, accounting for about 40% of all Panamera sales. It is also in the diesel sector that BMW hopes to sell 80% of the GC. Checking the new registrations of models that start at around the same base price, we see
Panamera Diesel £62,134: 302
730d M Sport £63,390: 457
There are a smattering of ~125 additional sales for the £65,305-£70,580 740d (+ M Sport), but it would appear that in the core diesel market, BMW's lack of kudos doesn't seem to be hurting. The Panameras at the high end range (100k) do seem to do better than the 7, but perhaps the remaining 20% of Gran Coupes may have style/image/driving advantages (particularly with the forthcoming M) that potential Panamera buyers could find appealing, as well as 7er buyers who are willing to sacrifice some practicality for sportiness.
S-Class sales trumped both of them quite handily yet who would doubt Mercede's "bravery" to take on Porsche?
Oh dear, I know I'm probably going to regret this, and this is supposed to be a thread about the 6er GC, but...............
New car registrations are just that. New car registrations. It doesn't reflect what was paid for them. A large proportion of the 7 Series sales will be fleet sales/company cars/ etc. Very few will be private individuals. In other words, discounts. Try getting the same discount on the Panamera and you will be laughed out of the dealer. Looking at raw data like you've presented does not indicate much, and certainly doesn't indicate, as you put it, "BMW's lack of kudos doesn't seem to be hurting".
Besides which, the 7 Series and Panamera are rivals?! For the vast majority, the Panamera will not even be on the radar of a 7 Series buyer because they need space and a wafting ride, neither of which the Panamera offers.
Finally, take a look at the second hand market. A BMW 7 Series can be had for £38,000 with 8,000 miles on the clock. A £30,000 drop tells you everything you need to know about what people are paying new for these. Now find out the price of a second hand Panamera with 8,000 miles on the clock.
You appear to be willing to talk the talk and try to make your posts sound "intelligent", but they have more holes in them than Swiss cheese. Purely from reading what you've posted, and this is certainly not personal, but it appears you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.
I have two friends that I see going back to BMW;they both gave up the 7er for the Panny, and I can see them going for the GC.
I can backup everything Betty is saying, plus Audi are just the same with their A8 because I can walk into a dealer and get 19% discount allday long. Porsche you'll be lucky to see 4%.
You also need to remember is Porsche limit supply, always have and probably always will.