Discussion in 'C-Class' started by MBFanToDeath, Mar 31, 2010.
^^Have we gotten an open door shot yet? Cuz this debate is getting pretty heated. LOL
Why wouldn't the BMW brigade touch a coupe without a b-pillar?
*Flame suit on, here it goes... It's the Saturday rant!*
Aw don't you just love how being a Mercedes-Benz-hating-BMW-fanboy makes them look ******* ridiculous?
I guess they wouldn't touch these "pieces of crap"...
And if anyone of you failed to notice my sense of sarcasm when I referred to the 3.0 CSL and the 850i as "pieces of crap", then you truly are a ******* idiot. They are gorgeous cars. :icondrool
*Saturday rant, over*
LOL, good example indeed, as 850i is technically one of the worst Bimmers ever made, and the press made that overly clear. Plus, it indeed looks like CRAP. Doesn't look like a Bimmer at all.
I must be a ******** idiot :eusa_thin
Either way, this has nothing to do with BMW vs MB at all as the user above wants to believe, but the simple fact that no B pillar makes a car heavier. I made that pretty clear in the other post I think.
I can even admit that having no B pillar can make stunning cars, like MB proves, and that 3.0 CSL too. It's just the extra weight issue...
The B-Pillar addition is mostly a safety thing for me. Also, I don't like the look of a Coupe with all 4 windows down.
And WHAT??!! The 850 is gorgeous!!
So I guess we have identical coupes with and without b-pillars so we know for a fact that the coupes without the b-pillars are heavier?
Or are we just coming up with the nonsense of the day?
As an enginner I assure you that the weight issue is anything but nonsense.
Let me explain. The chassis of the car, is in reality as 3-D frame in which the pillars act as columns, and there are beams, joints and many other static models. Removing the B-Pillar, means that in the static model of the chassis you remove the central column. That affects the structural and torsional rigidity of the chassis to a great extend. So, to achieve the same level of torsional rigidity you have to reinforce every other parts of the chassis/frame. This adds much more material (read weight) than the B-Pillar adds.
So again, how do we verify this? Where are the cars with and without the b-pillars for us to prove this? Until some actual proof is given its BMW-laced nonsense in my book.
Secondly it isn't as if pillarless coupes are oh so heavy that they can't perform. The CL doesn't have a b-pillar, but what car in its class is oh so light that has one?
BTW, I know what the frame of car is and how its built I know that without a pillar you're going to have some extra work to do, but my point is what car in the class with cars like the CL or anything like it or the E-Class coupe is light to begin with? These aren't sports car they're GT cars.
There are other wayz to get rigidity w/o adding weight, e.g. more HSLA. But it's likely expensive, and may thus only be suitable for E/S/CL/CLK. :t-drive:
A range of precision safety elements work together to protect you and your passengers in the event of a collision. All of them are encased in a rigid body structure utiltizing high-strength/low-alloy (HSLA) steel in critical areas such as the roof pillars, floor and roof crossmembers, door beams and various reinforcements throughout the body. HSLA provides greater resistance to bending and flexing than conventional steel of similar weight. Elaborate engineering of the side and roof structures helps provide excellent side-impact and roof strength even without a full B-pillar.
Source: 'Merican Mercedes-Benz
B-Pillars also act as protective "beams" to your head, in some ways. I.e, if a big truck is coming at your window, and it smashes through, the whole greenhouse area is vulnerable to intrusion. With a B-Pillar, acting as a deflective beam, it provides a lot of protection.
I have no pillars in my cheap babybimmer while the expensive C Coupé have it
You mean frameless doors.
You VERY MUCH have pillars.....unless you suddenly got the 1er cabrio instead of the 3-door.
Also, your babybimmer is not cheap
Classic denial. I love it.
More, please, more!!!
BMW retain a B-Pillar for maximum structural rigidity.
The E31 8er was the prime reason why BMW have went back to include a B-Pillar in all Coupe models since.
The 8er was singled out for it's body flex which severly affected the car. Hence why the M8 Prototype was equipped with a B-Pillar.
Wolfgang Reitzle former R&D boss wanted the life cycle impulse of the 8er re-engineered to come with a B-Pillar aka M8 or make sure the next generation was engineered to feature one. Sadly the early ninties recession if you put it correctly just killed the 8er entirely as both M8 and Cabrio models were cancelled.
In the words of Chris Bangle when asked why the (then new) E63 6er has a B-Pillar. "We wanted to do something without a B-Pillar but were overruled by the engineers... They wanted this sucker tight as a glove...."
Many BMW's use frameless doors including both MINI and and Rolls-Royce. The BMW 5er Gran Turismo has frameless doors.
Ok, before this degenerates into all out flame war, let me clarify since I am probably guilty of starting it. My earlier statement was just an off the cuff remark about people going on about frameless doors which is quite insignificant compared to B pillar. Now as to B pillar, does not having it, effect chassis rigidity? yes. Can you overcome at least some of the weakness by adding more strengthening to other parts, yes. Does that add weight, yes. Does it matter in a car like CL or even E coupe, not really, like Merc said, they are hardly sports cars. Will it matter in a AMG C coupe, yea I think so. BTW one of the advantages of a highly rigid chassis is a more direct steering feel.
And as to whoever pointed out 8er and 3.0 CSL as also not having B pillar either. 8er, yes, it was a gorgeous car, but was hardly known for it's handling, not to mention being a pig. And as for 3.0CSl, I doubt the standards for torsional rigidity in 60s when E9 first appeared was anywhere close to modern standards.
For first responders MB provides some info about the steels used in the CL. :t-drive:
Source: Mercedes-Benz USA
OK people, let's try to keep the discussion focused on the C-Class Coupe. :t-cheers:
Classic BS. All speculation and no facts, typical klier. Again where are the facts please?
What I find most interesting is a person who supports a position or stance about something, but doesn't know why and they're unable to explain why until someone else comes along and gives them a clue.
Finally something of substance. The only thing tho Sunny, BMW didn't intend the 8-Series as a sports car either, but the latter 850CSi model held up the BMW tradition pretty good IMO.
I agree that a sports car it would be more important, but in a CL/CLK/E or whatever no so much. Though to say that a sports car can't be made pillarless just isn't so. The CLK63 Black Series did just fine without a b-pillar. All it takes is some more focused engineering. Granted it is the hard way around to go, designing a sports/sporty car without a b-pillar, but it can be done.
Wolfgang, do you know if there's a chart like this for the W212 E-Class, or even W211 E-Class (for my own comparisons sake).
Sorry for going slightly O/T, but if anyone wants great info regarding high strength steels, etc., check out this site: Boron Extrication
The 212 is not yet included in the current edition. You can find the 211 first responder info in the FAQ, under "Miscellaneous Info". Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
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