Joy is BMW.

[Mr Robert]

Great to hear! Even greater if it turns out to be true and not just marketing rant

By the way, what is more futureproof about FI? Outside the EC cycle, the consumption and emissions are hardly better.

 

[EnI]

Great to hear! Even greater if it turns out to be true and not just marketing rant

By the way, what is more futureproof about FI? Outside the EC cycle, the consumption and emissions are hardly better.

FI makes more sense in I3 & I4 case - where displacement can be considerably small - even below one liter. And then you can pair it with electro motors to boos performance & lower the emissions, and fuel consumption.

So, why I6 & V8 & V12 FI engines then? To make money & to make R&D profitable. If starting with I4 FI, BMW would make loss.

But you can see BMW are learning very fast: eg. N54 --> N55

Yes, what BMW lack is the track customization - eg. offering better cooling, brakes, aerodynamics etc for the ones who want track driving. Sure there are Performance Parts, but still lacking some crucial tweaks.

I guess that's purely a marketing decision: to keep M cars special & desired. And to be able to introduce some special versions ala "is".

Yes, in the past you could get BMW performance for affordable price (eg. already in base 3er), now the performance is expensive (Ms), while core models are "only" sporty in daily driving - but not suitable for tracks anymore. Also due to more luxurious / refined nature (also the size & weight).

:::

So don't expect "M1" to be cheap, and ultra-light. But it will be extremely fast, and incredibly nimble & agile. Condensed joy.

Not on the level of E30 3er, but closer to E46.

 

[Human]

You're not alone. "Joy" gives BMW a terrible jolly image, completely different from the badass image "ultimate driving machine" used to give.

We have discussed much in this thread and got some good answers. I for one see BMW's point of view in many respects in their overall view and marketing strategy whilst staying competative and retaining their market leadership.

THOUGH!!! The 'JOY' thing...I have to agree...sucks BIG TIME!!!

 

[Mr Robert]

So don't expect "M1" to be cheap, and ultra-light. But it will be extremely fast, and incredibly nimble & agile. Condensed joy.

Not on the level of E30 3er, but closer to E46.

No one is expecting it to be cheap. No way. What we expect is perfection and perfection comes at a price.

It would still have to be about €10,000 less than an M3 (German prices).

 

[klier]

No one is expecting it to be cheap. No way. What we expect is perfection and perfection comes at a price.

I was surely thinking you would expect it to suck, being so negative with almost everything concerning BMW and it's future...What's this Dunkel?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Porsche makes high performance SUV

Oh for God's sake, will people STOP comparing apples with oranges. Porsche may very well make a high performance SUV, but they didn't stick a badge from their "specialist" motorsport division on one did they, and go against years of stating "we will never make an M SUV as M products are only suitable for very specific platforms.

BMW building an SUV is the same as Porsche building an SUV. BMW releasing an M version of an SUV does not have a direct equivalent from Porsche.

BMW could make as many SUV's as they liked, just as long as they didn't badge one "M".

 

[Human]

Oh for God's sake, will people STOP comparing apples with oranges. Porsche may very well make a high performance SUV, but they didn't stick a badge from their "specialist" motorsport division on one did they, and go against years of stating "we will never make an M SUV as M products are only suitable for very specific platforms.

BMW building an SUV is the same as Porsche building an SUV. BMW releasing an M version of an SUV does not have a direct equivalent from Porsche.

BMW could make as many SUV's as they liked, just as long as they didn't badge one "M".

Well Betty, it's time to get used to BMW SAV ///M. Not only was it the beginning of a new chapter for BMW but for me as an SAV fan! Demand is there and I will have my X6 ///M, second hand or however....I will figure out something to have the honor and pleasure of driving an X6 ///M.

Make peace with it my friend, times have changed AND the train has already left the station

 

[Mr Robert]

Putting an "M" on it does not make it M¹, but I get what you are saying and I totally respect those that dig the big and powerful aspect of BMW motoring.









¹) In a sense, I'm completely wrong here. It is of course BMW that decides what is M.

 

[klier]

To Betty: lol, you worry about a badge! X5 M and Cayenne Turbo (S) is exactly the same type of car, but because one is called M they don't compete anymore?

If Porsche would have had a division like M, AMG or RS (they don't!!!), the Cayenne Turbo would have had that name too. So if the Cayenne Turbo was called Cayenne GT3 RS it would have been proper competition???

It's suddenly apples with oranges because one car has an M badge and the other one doesn't, while they're EXACTLY the same type of car?

Calling the X5 M X5 4.4iS or something would have been much better though, I agree on that. BMW DID say they would never make an X5 M!

 

[Mr Robert]

Yes, both are very much the exact same type of car, but what type of car is that? M and GT3 or something else?

I guess this is about as useless to discuss this time as the last, but it is less about the badge and more about the product. I'm sorry if you misunderstood it.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Well Betty, it's time to get used to BMW SAV ///M. Not only was it the beginning of a new chapter for BMW but for me as an SAV fan! Demand is there and I will have my X6 ///M, second hand or however....I will figure out something to have the honor and pleasure of driving an X6 ///M.

Make peace with it my friend, times have changed AND the train has already left the station

I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth (Klier I'm coming to you in a minute, don't go away).

I'm not saying there isn't demand for a high performance SUV. I'm not even saying the idea of a high performance isn't attractive. It is. But BMW could have still fulfilled that "demand" by producing an X5/X6 with 555bhp, but by badging it X5iS, and without sacrificing the image of M.

But BMW knew that they could catch another 5-10% more sales by sticking an M badge on it.

^ lol, you worry about a badge, how sad!

I don't know if this was aimed at me Klier, but we'll assume it is. No, I do not buy M products because of the badge. I buy M products because I have faith that what I am buying is as true to the "ideals" of M, and that they have done their very best to produce a quality product.

My problem with the SUV M's is that BMW think they can get away with a half-arsed product because people will buy it "because it's wearing an M badge", which is exactly what they've done with the X5/X6 M, otherwise it would have been called iS.

^ X5 M and Cayenne Turbo (S) is exactly the same type of car, but because one is called M they don't compete anymore?

Again, this might not be aimed at me, but I never said the Cayenne Turbo and X5 M don't compete. Of course they compete with each other.

^ If Porsche would have had a division like M, AMG or RS (they don't!!!), the Cayenne Turbo would have had that name too. So if the Cayenne Turbo was called Cayenne GT3 RS it would have been proper competition???

This is all completely irrelevent Klier because Porsche DIDN'T release a Cayenne GT3 RS. Porsche didn't cash in on their most sporty brand.

Klier you have clearly missed the point of my post. The "apples and oranges" part is people saying Porsche have released an SUV and so have BMW. It's not the same. Porsche have released an SUV. BMW have released an SUV wearing a badge of a halo division in order to syphon off more sales. THAT is the bit which is "apples and oranges".

 

[Mr Robert]

No, I do not buy M products because of the badge. I buy M products because I have faith that what I am buying is as true to the "ideals" of M, and that they have done their very best to produce a quality product.

My problem with the SUV M's is that BMW think they can get away with a half-arsed product because people will buy it "because it's wearing an M badge", which is exactly what they've done with the X5/X6 M, otherwise it would have been called iS.

I think we are on the same page here. So, in a sense, I would say that, at least I'm a bit bothered about the badge, for the same reasons I think you are - it could be an indication on future direction.

But on the other hand, we haven't really heard anything that suggests that this would be the case.

 

[klier]

This is all completely irrelevent Klier because Porsche DIDN'T release a Cayenne GT3 RS. Porsche didn't cash in on their most sporty brand.

I was trying to say that Porsche does not even have a sporty brand like Audi, Mercedes and BMW. Porsche is Porsche, and a GT3 is for the 911 only.
If Porsche would have a sub brand like M, AMG and RS are, they would have given that name to the most sporty Cayenne too. But they don't need a sporty sub brand because every Porsche is meant to be extremely sporty to begin with... So the M in X5 M means the same as Porsche in Porsche Cayenne.

 

[chonkoa]

Oh for God's sake, will people STOP comparing apples with oranges. Porsche may very well make a high performance SUV, but they didn't stick a badge from their "specialist" motorsport division on one did they, and go against years of stating "we will never make an M SUV as M products are only suitable for very specific platforms.

Oh for Pete's sake, people will not stop stressing that comparison as long as there are people out there that will keep kvetching about BMW making an M version of their SUV.

BMW building an SUV is the same as Porsche building an SUV. BMW releasing an M version of an SUV does not have a direct equivalent from Porsche.

We have the Turbo and Turbo S version of the Cayenne, so why is it completely different when there is an M version of the X5/X6.
AMG makes an SUV and I don't hear people complaining about it. Porsche have three performance version of their SUV: GTS, Turbo and Turbo S.

BMW could make as many SUV's as they liked, just as long as they didn't badge one "M".

Well mate, dure fromage. There is an M badge SUV from BMW and it is well executed.




If I am not mistaken

 

[Betty Swollocks]

We have the Turbo and Turbo S version of the Cayenne, so why is it completely different when there is an M version of the X5/X6.

Because BMW could have badged it "iS" and they would still have had a competitor to Porsche. Instead we have an "M" trying to be something it's not. BMW's sole intention of putting an "M" badge on their high performance SUV's is to associate them with other M products which is simply not on.

AMG makes an SUV and I don't hear people complaining about it.

You are the one who brought up other manufacturers (in this case Porsche). I joined in because you justified BMW releasing an "M" SUV because Porsche have done it, when in fact it is not the same thing.

And now you have brought up AMG, since when have AMG ever said they would never make an SUV? MB have for a long time cashed in on their performance brand. Looks like BMW are doing the same now.

Porsche have three performance version of their SUV: GTS, Turbo and Turbo S.

And BMW could have an X5 iS and X6 iS, and they would still have a performance SUV.

There is an M badge SUV from BMW and it is well executed.
If I am not mistaken

You are very much mistaken. Have you not read pretty much every single review of the X5/X6 M?

 

[klier]

^ You are not! It's great.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

^ You are not! It's great.

Does that make it worthy of an M badge? The 330d is "great". One of the best cars I've ever owned. It's not an "M" though.

 

[Mr Robert]

^ You are not! It's great.

...for what it is, and I think that is the key here.

 

[klier]

No, you're right partly. But looking at the facts, there is some room to justify it being called like it is, because the car still has unique M only components. Let's not forget about the engine for instance. It's an M worthy masterpiece. Different from all the other M engines, but still better than anything the competition has.

...for what it is, and I think that is the key here.

Not just here. Everywhere. An M3 is a heavy crap slow ass monster compared to 458 Italia.

 

[chonkoa]

Because BMW could have badged it "iS" and they would still have had a competitor to Porsche. Instead we have an "M" trying to be something it's not. BMW's sole intention of putting an "M" badge on their high performance SUV's is to associate them with other M products which is simply not on.

Well, they called it an M, and an M it is. They can call it whatever they want.
Another quick correction, it is not trying to be anything it isn't- it is what it is.
BMW can and does have the right to define/redefine what an M car/truck, and they are not bound by any rigid ideological principles.

You are the one who brought up other manufacturers (in this case Porsche)

Fair enough

I joined in because you justified BMW releasing an "M" SUV because Porsche have done it, when in fact it is not the same thing

How?

And now you have brought up AMG, since when have AMG ever said they would never make an SUV? MB have for a long time cashed in on their performance brand. Looks like BMW are doing the same now.

So, BMW changed their mind- they are free to. I believe you reserve the right to change your mind don't you...
Business is war my friend, and just like war you don't show what your next move is until you have executed it.

And BMW could have an X5 iS and X6 iS, and they would still have a performance SUV.

My sincere apologies however they have called it an M and that is the way it is.
Maybe next time.

You are very much mistaken. Have you not read pretty much every single review of the X5/X6 M?

I can't say I have read every one of them, then I will be lying.
However this is what I have done; I have test driven the X5M and it does a marvelous job for an SUV and that is good enough for me- and that is all that matters to me.
I could care less about what those so-called journalist think or say.