German Car Forum

I was looking around for a sub-compact with a friend today, so we dropped by Citroen to take a look at the C1, C2 and C3. All pretty nice small cars in their own way, but the car that really created interest in me was the C4 Grand Picasso. It was a people mover, but it felt really upmarket and yet, utilitarian. There's nothing quite like it other than other Frenchies like Renault Espace etc, but this one is fresh, modern, quirky and pretty well-built, too. I was wondering whether any manufacturer was going to build a Honda Odyssey equivalent of a luxury people mover; I think I finally found it. Too bad Audi and BMW don't build 7-seater MPVs, and MB does a mediocre one (R-Class).

What do you guys think of this car, and Citroen in general? Any good?

generally i dont like citroen..
but this one looks very fresh..and airy..
i wouldnt mind one..

When I first saw Citroen and Renault, my impressions of French cars really changed... They feel really happy and unique, quirky and fun. I'm starting to like them more now, especially how young the Clio felt next to a Golf.

The C4 Grand Picasso, interestingly, also features ambient lighting extensively and has a huge moonroof... Every passenger also can adjust his own airconditioning, and it can really seat seven. Features you won't find typically on a normal car.

^ Yep, I've liked the Espace a lot ...and this is similar.

It's not a vehicle I would plan to keep for many years ...because it won't last for many, but it is still an interesting choice for it's genre.

Well it's just a minivan. I think the best van is the JDM honda odyssey. This is quite nice, but I would have to try it to find out. For what it's worth, this is a better alternative to an SUV, IMO.

Is the build quality that bad?

Anyway, we don't keep cars for very long in Singapore... The average turnover rate is 3 years and less.

The Odyssey is a great MPV... Drives like a car, feels like one, and it's spacious too. But it lacks the solidity of a continental car and it definitely isn't upmarket. No luxury MPV comes to my mind now which is actually good. Maybe BMW/Audi/MB can look into building one of these (MB should really revamp the R-Class).

^ actually James, I must confess I have not inspected the C4 Grand Picasso's interior ....so it was a presumptuous and perhaps unfair comment ...however, lets just say that Citroën products don't exactly get stellar ratings on their build quality ...usually.

I recently got the chance to drive the new Peugeot 207 and got the impression that in terms of build quality the French automakers are doing huge leaps forward.

In fact the perceived build quality seemed to have an egde even over VW Polo!

On the other hand i believe that reliabily is still not up there with the best but who knows maybe now that Ghosn is behind the wheel of Renault things might change.

You know, there was a time when French cars were some of the best in the world: Avions Voisin , Delahaye, Facel Vega -- but all that was long before I was born -- what happened?

The material and built quality of new generations of French cars are much improved, however realibility issues still remainds, however it seems like they have got their design magic back. The interior and exterior design looks very attractive, unique with very nice touches. Things like the extra big windscreen, the double rear view mirror, and the position of the air con control and display set this car apart from the bland and boring Japanese alternatives.

If you do want to go japanese, the Odyssey is pretty good, even though it is a bit underpowered. Which version of the Odyssey do you guys get, the U.S version or the Jap version?


btw, Rob, love your new avatar, I thought the Extra ad is just for the australian market.

I don't know what you mean by upmarket. If you mean the name, then no, the odyssey is not upmarket. But if you mean leather seats, voice activated navigation, one of the strongest engines in it's class, class leading interior, class leading handling, class leading in general...then the Odyssey is the correct car. It might not have the name, but it's been the best Van in the united states for MANY years in a row. I know, we own one...LOL

I discovered it on a blog -- and saw it on YouTube ...thought the donuts and cakes and banana were cool

The Picasso is okay but I think you should give the R-class a second look, it's really not that bad. Further more the sales are pretty low, sales people will instantly bend over and spread themselves for you just seal and R-class deal. Getting a very nice deal shouldn't be difficult at all.

In that case, it's ok.

Let's not forget that the R-Class costs almost like three C4 Grant Picasso's. I don't think it's correct to compare two totally different cars in terms of price.

We get the Jap version. If the Odyssey is underpowered, then the Picasso is horsedrawn. It's a 2L I4 in the Picasso we have here, good for only 200Nm... Plus, it uses an ancient 4 speed automatic.

I guess you guys are using the American Odyssey... I have not seen one of those, but the Japanese Odyssey we get is really "hollow". The leather feels plasticky, the stitching so poorly done and the build quality reminds me of a tin can... I'm sorry, I just cannot see past the Odyssey's flaws. But I'm sure the American version is much different from the Japanese one.

Luw, we've actually driven the R350L before... It felt as if its engineers didn't put in a lot of thought nor effort into the car. It, unfortunately, did not feel like a Mercedes Benz at all. Maybe I'm being overly-critical here, but I did expect a lot more from the R-Class. One thing though, is that it's quite cheap for its size and brand.

Dam the engine is tiny and the gearbox is crap, there is a way to make the Picasso go faster, you can use the Quattroporte to toll it around.


Totally agree with what you said about the jap odyssey, especially about the leather used in the car. Actually the leather used in most jap cars feel plasticky.

I haven't driven a R-class before but I have spent some time sitting inside one and checking it out, and I agree, it seems like the engineers didn't really bother with this car, cheap materials everywhere and the level of fit and finish isn't high. The car is big but there isn't as much interior space as expected.

Heh... The search for the world's best luxury MPV continues.

My uncle owns an Odyssey so I'm quite well-versed with it... It's not an entirely bad car, I still love the immense amounts of space. Now, if only Honda would retrofit a rear entertainment DVD system as standard. That would be cool.

I'm begging Mercedes to get a better R-Class out now. There's actually a potential market for a luxury people mover and I'm part of the demographic who's actually interested in one.

O yeah there is a market out there for luxury people mover, just look at those luxury vans from Toyota and Nissan, they are popular in Hong Kong, Jap and China, and that is about it. I will try find the names of these models, you know what I am talking about right?

I found 2, the Toyota Alphard Royal and the Nissan Elgrand 3.5 V6. They aren't luxury in the traditional sense, but I guess they are extremely comfortable passanger cars.

^ Hey that's great ....who needs a Rolls or Maybach

They are like flying in economy class with 1st class features. These Toyota and Nissan will probably offer a similar level of passenger comfort to the RR and Maybach but without all the things that makes the trip truly memorable or special.

I hope that makes sense.

Hmm. That engine/gearbox combo is largely irrelevant in Europe, people here would go for the 2.0 HDi (340 Nm of torque) which comes with a 6-speed conventional auto or an automated manual. I suppose you guys don't get that option there.

Yes, the Toyota Alphard immediately comes to mind. But I always picture a Hong Kong street gang leader in one of these with his croonies driving up front. These Japanese luxury MPVs also are not shy about being huge and looking like a minivan... I guess in comparison, the R-Class is a far more classy choice than any of these. But in terms of space, price and sheer practicality, I think it can't compare.

That would be an ideal choice MikeJ... I'll fight for it.