German Car Forum

Yeah i noticed it when i posted this thread, that is why i said "Test Drive" the more detail testing are usually called "Road Test" by Autocar.

Yeah. True. Speaking of which, apparently all the early 'impressions' are of a car that's (AND this IS what a lot of fans want to know) dynamically not quite on par as 3 series, though quite good, but technically and reliably (again apparently- too early) sound, comfortable and refined. i.e w203 + 1 .
I do respect mercedes for not 'staying up all night' to beat the 3series. That would seem like setting a bench target for an inferior product which the w204 is not. It would also seem to be seen as mercedes chasing after bmw which must really be marketing suicide. All too recently it seems like thats what audi and lexus have been trying to do: seemingly wannabes. N i dont mean that to ridicule any makers or fans but thats my impressions. I think kudos to mercedes for going about it differently and saying, ''...hey, we have our own values which we'll wrap in a dynamically competent car!''
Havin said all that, performance is still crucial in this sector. At the premium range, it is sometimes the determinant factor amongst buyers, otherwise we'd all but toyota camrys. N im not whuping up another benz v bmw debate but more benz v benz. Clearly the 330d and (help!) 335d have performance advantages over the w204 320cdi, but so does the w203 320cdi! Any1 read the review in timesoline uk? 6.9s vs 7.7s. I think thats a huge gap in favor of old v new. Apparently the w204 bodyshell's 8% weight savings over w203 has been upset by more equipment on board and also more more refinement and soundproofing without any gains whatsoever in power. Usually this is redressed by small bt meaningful adjustments in power and/or torque.
Does any1 find it strange in this day that a new product has a performance deficit over the one it replaces? I for 1 think merceds has to up its performance ante all across the whole E- class below level to remain competitive. Smhow it seems to be lacking in the output, weight saving and revving departments of its lower end engines, i.e performance. Any1 help out with the last benz mid range engine they really, really got excited about? Also who do you think has the best range of engines right now and invariably who do you think has the most boring???
No need to get out the bazookas, just personal opinions, as is mine.
Cheers to the w204, methinks it will be a brilliant all round drive.

Good post. Welcome to the forums.

Cheers. Have really enjoyed some of your posts in the forum in particular. Your opinions on the engine range amongst the premium brands? And do check out the 'where is it?' thread on in the clk forum when you have the time.
Cheers

Mercedes-Benz C-Class
Test date 13 March 2007 Price when new TBA


What is it?
If you buy a new Mercedes C-class from launch, this is the finest model Stuttgart can offer – the new six-cylinder, petrol powered C350 Sport. Until the AMG C-class appears in September, it must carry the mantle of the most sporting, powerful C-class and with it the hopes of Mercedes that it can attract a younger, more dynamic constituency of punter into its new and conspicuously attractive small saloon.

What's it like?
Heavier and less powerful than its closest rival, the BMW 335i, the C350's performance is unexceptional. Mercedes reckons its 272bhp, 3.5-litre motor will propel it to 62mph from rest in 6.4sec but to me it simply didn’t feel that fleet. Moreover, if you really start rummaging around in the upper reaches of its rev range, the V6 starts to sound a little hoarse and strained.

Left in the mid-range, however, and it fares much better. This is an engine that hits a peak torque figure of 258lb ft at just 2400rpm and maintains it all the way to 5000rpm, so the way to drive it is to select a higher gear than you might naturally choose, and let the engine rather than the gearbox do the work. Besides, left to its own devices the seven-speed auto is as trigger-happy as ever when applied to this engine and only really calms down when bolted to the back of the 3.0-litre diesel motor.

But once you’ve learned to lock it in a gear and drive on the engine’s torque rather than its power, there is a great deal to be enjoyed here. This way you relegate the powertrain to a support role for a chassis of exceptional quality for this kind of car.

On a decent road you notice at once how much better balanced it is than the diesel C320 CDi and it is only on further investigation that you discover the C350 is a whopping 90kg lighter than the diesel. It turns in sharply, resists understeer determinedly and allows your hands to position the nose and your right foot to do the same for the tail. It seems odd to be saying this about a C-class, but it is a precision instrument, which combines fine body control with still enviable ride quality.

All of this only adds to the sense of well-being created by the C-class’s attractive shape, sensibly proportioned interior, perceived standard of build and quite exceptional high speed refinement.

Should I buy one?
It’s a shame the engine is not a little more accomplished, for in most other respects the C350 is all you could hope for from a small Mercedes saloon: compact yet classy, comfortable yet capable all at the same time.

There is no doubt that the 335i, with more firepower at its disposal and a more aggressive set up, is the more focussed driver’s car and, I don’t doubt, the car most of us would choose to pedal if offered the keys to both. But as a thing to live with day to day, the C350 is actually the more broadly appealing car.

Andrew Frankel

Thank you.

I don't quite understand what you mean with this sentence though:

Your opinions on the engine range amongst the premium brands?



Checking out the CLK forums now...

Another test from Autocar


" Test date 08 March 2007 Price when new TBA


Cabin design feels like old-school Merc - in a good way
What is it?
Mercedes’ new contender in the junior executive class, which has the unenviable task of taking on the BMW 3-series.

This all-new C-class was developed entirely within a computer until late on in the prototype stage, and also embraces plenty of new technology in its production form: electronic dampers, a new generation of voice control, and S-class-style COMAND system to name but a few.

Essentially, though, it’s the familiar recipe of sophisticated suspension and rear-wheel drive.

There’s a predictable – yet carefully developed – range of engines from the four-cylinder petrol to the V6 350 and diesel 320CDi engines.

What’s it like?
We tried the C320 CDi in Sport trim. The fact that it was a Sport is now quite important, because Mercedes has put more air between the differing trim levels in the range.

An Elegance is very much the luxury variant; a Sport gets switchable dampers, a quicker steering rack, an AMG bodykit including a totally different grille and sportier interior.

In the glinting black of our test car, the Sport looks really rather effective indeed. Mercedes has really tried to put the gravitas back into the C-class and the mixture of current S-class themes and the big, upright grille – like that on a 1980s 560 SEC – give this car genuine presence.

At town speeds and when cruising the C320 is a very easy and relaxing car to drive. The steering is light but accurate and the ride – on these ripple-free Spanish roads at least – is very smooth when the dampers are set to normal.

There’re oodles of grunt on tap from the refined V6, and the seven-speed automatic gearbox shifts smoothly.

As a sports saloon it’s not quite so successful, if still a highly competent steer. There’s plenty of grip and composure up until eight-tenths, beyond which it lacks the genuine sporting poise and entertainment of a 3-series.

Nevertheless, the C-class is roomier than its Bavarian rival, with a bigger boot and better ride. It also gets much more attention from passers-by.

Should I buy one?
If you're about to replace your compact exec saloon, you should certainly try one. Although it doesn’t offer quite the entertainment of a BMW, based on this initial sampling the new C-class is a strong all-round package.

Adam Towler "

I mean which premium manufacturer dyu think has the best line up of engines in the V6 and below range and dyu find mercedes in particular a little bit wanting in this segment? Both diesels and petrol. The w204 for example seems to have nothing (engine wise) to drool about and seems to even suffer some performance deficits compared to w203.
Off to hym now, c y'all later.

Heres where most people get it wrong.....The point of the 3 series isnt about track times...its about making what we might call "every day driving" fun in and of itself. Therefore even though we might argue that the 3 series is a couple percent faster around a turn-than the W204, the point of the 3 series is driving pleasure-even for that daily routine visit to work. Ultimately the consumer buys the car that gives him the most confidence as a driver and the most enternment, which is why the 3 series is still king and probably will be for a long time.

I don't quite agree with everything you've said. You're right that track times or cornering speeds are not everything and shouldn't be the main reason why people buy a certain car (although for some hardcore enthusiasts who track their cars, it could).

What delivers driving pleasure? Good steering feel, good brake feel, solid feeling when cornering, and fast acceleration come to my mind. Generally, I think driving in the city during rush hour traffic is NOT the situation which would deliver driving pleasure, whether you're driving a Toyota Corolla or Ferrari F430. For most people, driving pleasure comes when driving at a brisk pace with or without turns to take advantage of the capabilities of a car.

If you're not on an deserted twisty road, or on a track, you simply cannot enjoy the advantages of the 3 series over any of its competitors (like the C-class or A4 or IS or G35, etc). Sure, you can engage in illegal high speed runs on the highway, or you can take a curvy on-ramp at higher than average speeds, but unless you're really close to the edge of cornering limit, a 3 series will not feel that much better than a W203 C-class or B6/B7 A4. Yes, a Porsche Boxter or S2000 does obviously feel much better taking that same on ramp at speed, but that's a completely different class of car.

Do you notice where magazines test their cars to decide which car "performs" the best? They either do it on a track to measure objective performance numbers, or they take it to the open road with minimal or no traffic so they can see what happens when they tackle turns at speed. Only then can you gauge how the steering feels, whether the brakes have good modulation, and whether the shifter feels good or not. When they do it in urban traffic (where most people drive), the C-class historically always gets better compliments about smoothness, comfort and quietness.

Bottom line: I think you have to drive faster than usual to really notice the differences between the 3 series/C-class/A4, and that means typical urban driving won't do it.

A big reason the 3 series is so successful is because it is "hip" and "popular" with the younger crowd. BMW has done an excellent job of marketing itself towards this segment by selling a sporty image. Many people would consider Mercedes to be an "older" person's car. Sure, the 3 series cars are actually very capable, but I guarantee you that most 3 series buyers decide on the car because of style and image, rather than the fact that the it handles better or has better steering feel than the competition.

The fact that the 3 series has always won most comparison tests in car magazines only adds to the advertising of the car. And remember, most car magazines rate cars based on PERFORMANCE.

Unless MB is happy being with the C-class being 2nd rate in terms of sales compared to the 3 series, I think Mercedes SHOULD try to take on BMW in this compact segment. And that means putting an emphasis on performance or driving experience for these small cars. With the W204, they're marketing the Avant Garde (or Sport) models to be the sporty representative. Let's see whether it will truly give the 3 series a run for its money with the upcoming "advanced agility" package.

The facelifted W203 C-class was the closest MB has ever gotten to the 3 series (including the E90) in terms of driving dynamics, as many car magazines have attested to. I am hoping that the W204 will take the next step....although somehow I doubt MB is going to take that route.

I appreciate your thoughts on this. Your right in saying that BMW might sell the 3 series because of image and reputation alone-but I honestly believe they are won over-after the test drive. Sure the benefits of a perfected suspension and great steering feel can only be sought on a track or by means of spirited driving BUT, as a driver and even a passenger i feel that those benefits can also be felt on everday driving-stop and go traffic, left hand turns etc.

I noticed this when I drove a 300 SRT8. Claiming to be a performance car with a high output V8 engine, it simply isnt. I could tell by driving at normal speeds in the san fernando valley. The steering was loose and the suspension plush-leaving me to doubt the validity of its claim as a performance car. I would not have the confidence to drive this Chrysler like I would my mom's 335i sedan. As soon as you role away in that car-you can tell the suspension is taut and the steering, perfect. That confidence is felt through every day driving-which is why I think (for BMW) test drives are what sell cars.

Hehe....the Chrysler 300 SRT-8 is nowhere close to the driving experience of the 3 series. The 300 SRT-8 is huge, and heavy, nothing like a C-class or A4, which is much more comparable to the 3 series.

I guess my point is the difference in driving experience between the 3 series, C-class or A4 is very minimal when driving at legal urban speeds (from personal experience).

well you would probably know better than me. I personally havent driven the A4 or the new C class..

[quote=PC Valkyrie;163899]

A big reason the 3 series is so successful is because it is "hip" and "popular" with the younger crowd. BMW has done an excellent job of marketing itself towards this segment by selling a sporty image. Many people would consider Mercedes to be an "older" person's car. Sure, the 3 series cars are actually very capable, but I guarantee you that most 3 series buyers decide on the car because of style and image, rather than the fact that the it handles better or has better steering feel than the competition.

[quote]

You are dead right about 3 series buyers. Almost 60% of the 3 series sold in Australia are 320i, hardly sporty at all, yet a lot of them chose to purchase the M sports pack as well, which is just an overkill, and ofcourse it is absolutely useless on a 320i For the majority of them. their decision to purchase the car is based on style and image alone, which explains why a large number of 320i has the M sports package.

An powerful engine isnt everything. A 320i has the same wonderful steering feel, gearbox, the chassi as the bigger brothers.

Many people buy the M-package, doesnt matter if its a 1/3/5 -series or a big or small engine.

In US image means a lot, therefore many buy a BMw or a MB over a japanese or american car.

An M-package or AMG Sport package or S-Line are all about STYLE for most people. The aerodynamic advantages of bodykits and brake cooling ducts WILL NOT come into play unless the car is really travelling at high speeds or braking really hard repeatedly on a track.

Larger rims are also mostly for "show". The only thing these "sport packages" offer which may affect the driving experience is tighter suspension resulting better cornering on a track, but at price of a stiffer ride around town (where most people drive).

So, yes, I think the majority of people buy these "sport packages" for the image and style. Of course, there's nothing wrong with that.....we are all vain....

Well from personal experience, the reworked Mercedes 4-cylinders with Kompressor's are pretty smooth and refined thanks to the addition of Twinpulse (counter rotating balance shafts that balance the inherent instability of a 4-cylinder motor). I've said this often, but they feel and sound like a 6-cylinder, both sound and refinement wise. No joke.

The new Mercedes 2.5, 3.0 and 3.5 V6's are equally refined. Power is not exactly lacking, but I agree that they've been a bit slow to update the 3.5 V6 in the face of the 300-hp V6 engine competitors in this class. And that's where the new C400 Biturbo will come in. This car just sounds like something that was made to compete against the BMW 335i and Lexus IS350 as well as the upcoming Audi 3.0 V6 engine with over 300-horsepower.

Also, keep in mind that the current W204 C-Class will make use of carry-over engines from the W203 for the first few months. You can bet that Mercedes has some new engines being developed as we speak.

Oh I completely agree. But I am certain that almost every car in this class delivers or can deliver the same feeling to whomever is driving it. The facelifted C-Classes W203 for instance gave me such a feeling when I drove them. For my needs, they handled well enough, the engines were agile and resonded well etc. Someone else will probably get that same feeling driving a Lexus IS or a Kia Rio or a Lada Niva.

I did mention that I feel that when someone pushes a 3-Series to the limits, that it will perform better and with more confidence over all the other cars in this class.

Of course there are other carmakers that offer a fun car just like there are carmakers offer comfortable cars. Some carmakers are better or worse than others on those things.

The 320i is actually still a sporty and fast car. A bigger engine just determines quicker performance times, not the sports aspect of the car. The same can be said for the Mercedes C180 Kompressor and C200 Kompressor. They're sporty and comfortable but simply have smaller engines - which IMO don't make the car "unsporty".

Excellent, in a nutshell.

My brother sms me today to say he saw a black W204 on the road ......Problem is that I don't believe him at all because we're in Australia so the W204 is not due until June/July........Maybe they're test driving it here to get it to Australian standards/compliance??!!

Hey Monster, you're from where I am, what do you think??

Personally, I think my brother is still pissed off his nut from drinking on his 18th B'day last weekend!!??