German Car Forum

Very good point. I personally agree with you . I think we will have to wait and see what the new M3 does.

However, I continue to ponder what does that mean for Audi. If the upcoming M3 will be equal or mabye slightly better than the RS4, then what is going to happen to the S4 or even better, what is the purpose of the S4 in the automotive market?

In terms of performance and price... yes it is in a league of its own!

When the other boys will cout out with their respective toys, I'm sure the new tincans will be more or less on par with the RS4.

Further, I believe that in terms of pricing, both the C63 and the new M3 will put the RS4 to shame.

Well performance is not that much greater. The price is. I don't think you can seperate leagues based on price, if of course you are basing a league on price alone. The car is a lot like the M3 and C55, if not identical in the philosophy behind it.

I agree with you about the S4. It's puzzling thought about why there is a S4. I mean before the RS4 it was the S4 that competed with the M3 but right now it is 335ci that is giving the S4 a run for it's money. I personally think that the S4 should either be done with or bring back the bi-turbo!

the bi-turbo will be cheaper than the RS4 plus it will be easier to mod as well.

The real competition will be E92 M3 vs RS5 vs new CLK63. Sometimes in 2009.

And then E90 M3 vs W204 C63 vs B8 RS4. In cca 2010.

Right now comparing a year old RS4 sedan with 6 years old M3 coupe is a " no go".

Thats exactly what I said Eni..You can't compare the RS4 to the OLD M3

I haven't seen to much info on the new C55 or M3, but unless they come with all wheel drive they don't stand a chance against the RS4! All wheel drive means alot more than I believe you could imagine!

So, that's why Audi has been the best handling cars for so long right?

Anyways, AWD isn't always the best. If you can't look beyond that, then I don't know what to tell you...no offense intended.

Excuse me guys but RS4 is based on A4 which is essentially a very old model too. Sales started in late 2000 - early 2001 and apart from the facelift (which was more about exterior) it's practically the same car ever since. So M3 is old indeed but RS4 is not as new as you think.

First off it's not about cars as a whole, but this car, and it's my opinion that this car has set the bar out of reach for Bmw as well as Mercedes!

But one of the most component is much older. I'm talking about the engine. You are talking about 333hp vs over 400hp, inline 6 vs v8.... How was that ever going to be fair?
It might have been based on an old car (do they share the same components, I'm not sure) but it was designed lately. The M3 was designed way earlier.

Agreed due to being lighter and having a better chassis to begin with than the RS4 had.

Next gen A4 should make things tight though as the S4 should have about 380-400hp if not 415hp to match the M3.

If that is the case then you cant compare the new M3 to the RS4 cause the A4 chassis is really old.

AWD isn't always the best thing, and it is not the best thing for wet weather, contrary to what people believe.

The AWD system adds weight, and desires more power to move the vehicle.

I don't see why it is so hard for everybody to understand the purpose of the S4, It's pretty clear actually. The RS 4 is what, $66K while the S4 is $48K, so more people are going to be able to afford the S4 than the RS 4.

Audi has 4 models in their small luxary car segment just like BMW and they are all gradually spaced apart, so there is something for everybody depending on price or performance.

A4 2.0T $28K - 200hp
A4 3.2 $36K - 255hp
S4 4.2 $48K - 340hp
RS 4 $66K - 420hp

S4 makes perfect sense to me, which explains why I see more S4s driving around than RS 4s.

Likewise here is BMW where the coupe takes the place of the S4

328i $32K - 230hp
335i $39K - 300hp
335icoupe $42K - 300hp
M3 ??????

Mercedes

C230 $30K - 200hp
C280 $35K - 230hp
C350 $40K - 270hp
C55 ??????
C63 ??????

True indeed!! Both cars have old parts

I can guarantee you that over a bumpy and twisty mountain road a RS4 would easily beat the upcoming M3. In everyday situations the RS4 would beat the M3 9/10 times on public roads, unless it was a straight drag race as I reckon the M3 would be slightly faster due to weight.

I will give you the bumpiness and curves up to an extent. Research how AWD helps in cornering, especially when it is wet, and you will see that it is not all Audi makes it out to me.

Also, this calim about "9/10" what the heck is that? What other situations? The M3, if more powerful and agile than the RS4, will beat it in more than a straight line, I can garuntee you that.

Also, slightly is a key term here. The Audi RS4 is only slightly faster than the M3. So, it is all relative. At the end of the day buying an M6, M5, RS6, RS4, M3, C55, etc. is all going to be the same for the most part. You won't be able to tell the difference in certain situations. It's not like we are comparing a honda civic(which is what I own) and an RS4 here. We are comparing fast cars, and differences come down to .2, .4 of seconds.

Don't give me this "9/10" garbage.

The RS4 is quite a bit faster than the M3 actually, its not even close, watch the fifth gear video of M3 vs RS4.


In the wet a M3 has no chance against a RS4 or S4, that shouldnt even be open for debate.

9 times out of 10 a powerful 4wd car will obliterate a comparable RWD car on twisty and bumpy roads, on damp and greasy roads, snowy roads, icy roads and wet roads.

Street racing (real street racing not that motorway/autobahn stuff a powerful rwd car against a powerful 4wd car is like having a convertible. You only reap the benifits in hot dry conditions.

The RS4 might have an old Chassis but everything else is brand new...bodywork, engine, awd system, electronics, the works. The M3, same as it was in 2001, nothing has been changed.

As for the 9/10 comment...I guess you must be god because so far only BMW, god and of course YOU know how that car handles and Straight like acceleration..

AWD isn't the best thing there is anyways, because other wise the R34 GT-R it's Super HICAS ATTESSA-ETS would be the best handling car in the world...Not only is that system AWD and offers a freakin Great split in F:R and can be 70% rear bias (if i remember correctly) the rear wheels also turn to a certain degree....now is it the best, NO! No offense but do some research before you claim 1 thing to be better than the other.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. It is clear that you are so bogged down with the 4 rings.

Seriously, you continue to argue about wet surface. I am not arguing in favor of a wet surface, so top. 9/10 is just wrong. OK? Also, I have seen the 5th gear video and it still doesn't change anything.

AWD is not the best thing in the world to have, and there is a misconception about its ability--which you obviously follow--in wet surfaces. An AWD car RWD, FWD, will all slip on ice no matter what. The difference between manufactuere is the stability control that they have. Without that, it doesn't matter. Yes, AWD gives you a little bit of more control, but traction?

It was debated here, and at GCF that AWD, based on anaylsis by car drivers, isn't what AWD claims to be. This all purposeful transmission that will give you great control in any condition. It's just false!

In sweden I know several M5 and M3 owners using the cars during winter. Use good tires with good grip and the cars work fine. New M cars arent that bad during winter as some people might think. A well-balanced chassi and electronicals like ASC, DSC and with proper tires you will do just fine.

I totally agree. AWD gives you a false sense of security. You can drive any car in the winter but up to a limit. I have driven my 93 honda accord in icey conditions on a highway with chains on my tires...I didn't wreck but I saw plenty of wrecks though, BMW, mercedes and Audis included. The only thing that can save you is your reaction time and acceleration/braking control.

Wrong the M3 has changed aplenty over the years underneath the skin with suspension settings etc.

My 19yr old friend has a 2004 e46 M3. My other friends older brother has a CLK 55 AMG. The M3 is faster, but the merc is a much better everyday car.

I have not yet been in a RS4, but you only need to read reviews that the RS4 blows the current M3 out of the water, no ifs or buts as it has been reported loads.

Also my 9/10 comment is for racing a car around a bumpy and twisty track. Would you guys like me to quote M3 owners of another car forum that I visit where they say its hard to use the M3 to its full potential on british public roads due to a skittish rear end under power?

Quote me where I said 4WD is better than RWD on a racetrack? You cant. As for your R34 analogy that is crap because look at what the R34 started life out as, if it was purpose built like the new GTR will be I could see it having 911 rivalling or even beating performance. RWD can only go so far, 4wd will be superior once engineers can iron out the negatives of it. RWD has arguably already been perfected a long time ago.

No offense to you but read what im saying, and understand what im cliaming, and what im not claiming

Rich coming from a BMW fan, the same guys who like to remind us that somehow BMW had a hand in making the RS4 because audi "stole" on of their engineers. Also you bmw fans are the ones who actually thing the M3 can keep up with the RS4 even though theres a 80hp power difference

If you were to come to england tomorrow in a ferrari and I was in a evo with considerable less power I would still beat you in a street race around a bumpy and twisty road. Do you agree with this?

Thank you. There is a particular reason why Audi, BMW, MB have invested money into traction control systems and that is because no matter what drivetrain you have, it will still slip, slide, etc.