German Car Forum

Originally Posted by Luwalira

What his guys said is fantastic. I want to send him a piece of ginger bread of something. This is really a true Porsche fan.
Very nice post which is worth while reading.
Link: http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...=160991&page=0


RC said:
This post is addressed towards Porsche, I know they read the forums, hopefully they take seriously too what they read here:

The 911 is THE Porsche sportscar, even in times of a Carrera GT, people still refer to the 911 in terms of Porsche sportscar heritage and tradition. These three digits were always the synonyme for a light and very fast sportscar, despite some unsuccessful attempts, like the Porsche 928, to replace it.
When somebody says the word Porsche, the next thing which comes into someones mind are the three digits, 911. The 911 has always been an example of how a sportscar can be used on the race track but at the same time for driving to a restaurant in a nice suit too. Compared to the competition, the 911 was always more reliable, more forgiving and still something very special. Porsche should realize that the 911 is actually keeping their whole model line alive, no matter if it is the Boxster or the Cayenne. All Porsche models are always compared to the 911, the dispute about the Cayman S on the Cayman Forum makes it very clear. The 911 is and has always been THE performance meter for Porsche and surprisingly, for other car manufacturers too. I remember that no matter if BMW with the M3 or Audi with their RS models, they always compared them to the 911 and tried to make them as much 911 as possible, not always with a big sucesss. The 911 has set a benchmark in sportscar history and even Ferrari owners know what, judging by the shocking performance of 911 cars in the past when Ferrari drivers refused to race against 911 owners because they knew they would look very bad.

Where does the 911 stand now? Today? Has it become a grand tourer like many people say? Has it become the perfect wannabee racer for wealthy people like lawyers, doctors and entrepeneurs? Has it become just a shadow of what it has been in the past? Has the 911 lost it's soul? Has the 911 lost it's true identity, has it become a heavy, non-enjoyable, fat sports coupe? I doubt it. Still.

Compared to the 911 models in the past, the 997 is one of the most beautiful and refined 911 Porsche has ever built.
I'm not quite getting the strategy to offer the 911 Carrera and the Carrera S and I also don't understand why they use the M96 engine in one and the M97 engine in the other car but maybe I'm just too blind to understand that Porsche has to earn money and to lower cost. But is it wise to make the 911 look like a marketing scam? Is it wise to offer even the base 911 model, the 997 Carrera, without leather or Bi-Xenon lights in this price class? I'm always very furious when somebody explains this policy with "saving weight" by not adding all possible options on a standard car. But why not offering a fully loaded car with the possibility to delete options and save money? The other way around?!

Porsche has earned a lot of money in the past and if I look at the past few years, I think they deserved it. The 911 got better and better and even the Boxster is now a "true" Porsche, not a 911-wannabee with cheap looks like it was in the beginning when Porsche was almost bankrupt and prayed that the Boxster strategy will pay off.

A great part of Porsche's current success has Dr. Wiedeking, the "great leader" how Porsche enthusiasts call him over here. I know this sounds a little bit sarcastic but it isn't. Dr. Wiedeking did a lot of good things for Porsche and saved the brand from being taken over, Mercedes comes into my mind. And we should also thank Dr. Wiedeking for the fact that the 911 was "allowed" to live on, a lot of people at Porsche wanted to get rid of it, to replace the 911 and the whole rear engine concept with something new, something "better", something more up-to-date. But this is where these people were wrong and Dr. Wiedeking was right, the 911 IS Porsche, it isn't just a three digit number, the 911 is Porsche's identity, it's soul and it's heart.

Dr. Wiedeking did a wonderful job over the past years and the introduction of the highly disputed Cayenne was a very clever thing to do, bringing more money into Porsche's bank account and allowing to invest more money into future models, like the 997 for example.
Recently, Porsche bought over 20% of Volkswagen, spending almost all the money they earned over the past few years.
As much as I understand this decisions due to the various connections between Porsche and Volkswagen, I hope this doesn't mean that future Porsche models "suffer" from this ingenious "takeover". Although 20% aren't more than 50%, make no mistake: the 20% of Volkswagen allows Porsche a lot of saying in the future of Volkswagen and even more interesting, the future of Audi, Bentley and Lamborghini. And Porsche finally has access to their technology up to a certain point, making the future look even more bright for Porsche.

So where does the 911 stand now? With 355 HP or 381 HP on powerkit cars, the 911 is not really up to it's competition anymore, not at the current price tag and options policy.
Take the BMW Z4 M and the Boxster S/Cayman S as an example. BMW is not a "cheap" brand, it is a high quality brand and I don't think that their technological/quality level is far away from Porsche. Same applies to Mercedes AMG, look at the new powerful V8 engines WITHOUT any turbos or superchargers. I just don't want to think about the rumored bi-turbo charged V8 performance models which are rumored for next year or the year after next year to come.

The truth is: Porsche lost the power war. They put so much emphasis on weight and chassis setups but lost control over engines. The 997 should have had 381 HP from the start, there was no need for a 997 Carrera with 325 HP, especially since the weight of the 997 increased slightly. The powerkit is in my opinion just a marketing thing, it is hard to believe that it hasn't been developped at the same time with the base engine, making it not much more expensive regarding production cost.
Porsche also started to listen a little bit too much to customers. Does a wider body on the C4/C4S make sense? If yes, why not more visible like on the 996 C4S where the rear lights and some other minor details were different too? Why not offer the wider body for all 997 models, maybe with the option to get the narrow body too at no additional cost? Maybe because the 4WD doesn't make real sense in the lower powered 997 normally aspirated models? Would a C4S sell in the narrow body?

In my opinion, Porsche has gotten too much into the options "game", especially all those colours and leather combos. I understand that this is where the money is but why not offer a fully loaded base car with the option to go for special colours and other stuff at additional cost? Why do I have to pay for full leather on a 100000 Euro car? Why do they add a PCM system to their cars but I have to pay a fortune for a navigation system, not to speak about the phone? Why do I have to pay for the chrono sports package, an option which should actually be standard on ALL 997 models? Why doesn't Porsche offer the very good PCCB brake on all 997 models without cost IF they really believe that this brake is a breakthrough in braking technology? Why does Porsche ask 12500 Euro for 26 horses more if installed from the factory?

Sorry, Porsche but the more I'm watching you, the more I get the impression that it is more about money than about the three digits. I don't have problem with you guys earning money, everyone should earn as much as possible. But as a longtime customer and hard working man, I want the maximum possible "achievement" out of my money. I love my 997 Carrera S but I still have the feeling of having been ripped off financially. Why is that? Why would I have this feeling? Maybe because in one domain, I'm not satisfied with the 997 Carrera S: power.

The upcoming 997 Turbo is a very important model for Porsche, they may not even realize how important the new 911 Turbo is for them. The 911 Turbo has always been THE supersportscar. When I was a kid, I rememebered how I got goose bumps only when somebody mentioned the name 911 Turbo, not to speak about the feeling when I actually saw one on the street. I never dreamt of a Ferrari, a Ferrari was always like that foxy lady from the neighborhood which looked fantastic and made my stomach go up and down but I always knew that this isn't the right woman to look for if I want to be happy the rest of my life.

Back in 2000, I would have never dreamt of getting the chance to own a 911 Turbo. When my dealer surprisingly told me that I can have the first one, after being the 6th on a list and not having hope of getting one before winter, I was the happiest person on this planet. When I picked up my 996 Turbo in June, two days after the official launch party, I was in heaven. My wife was pregnant with our first child, business was going well too, I considered myself to be the luckiest man on this planet.
I owned the 996 Turbo for over three years and I never had such strong feelings for a car before, never. During the ownership, I recognized the "flaws" this car had and the most disturbing one was: not enough power. Imagine driving a car and having the feeling that it could handle at least 100 HP more. So I decided to take my car to a Tuner, RS-Tuning. Finally, I was driving in my opinion one of the most powerful, fast and almost perfectly "balanced" 911 Turbo, my absolute dreamcar. After I sold it due to the arrival of the second child, I felt very bad. It was the dumbest thing to do and I lost a lot of money.

Now, the 997 Turbo is close to arrival. A lot of speculation has been going on in the past, especially about the power of the new 911 Turbo and of course the weight.
Since I'm driving a 997 Carrera S already, I wasn't too excited about the new Turbo at first. But after I had the chance to throw a short glimpse on the non-camouflaged car in Weissach during sound testing because they didn't put the black cover fast enough over the car and after I finally see a real picture of the final car in a preliminary brochure, I had those goose bumps again, like I was still a child.

I decided to go for the new 997 Turbo, maybe to feel again what I felt over five years ago. A feeling of happiness which is hard to describe. Just imagine for a second that you have and are everything you ever wished for in life, this feeling it is I'm talking about.
I'm no millionaire and I have two little kids I have to take care of for the future. So going for the 997 Turbo is a very important thing for me, not just getting another toy for the next 12 months.

This is the reason why I ask Porsche to do the job right this time. The 997 Turbo doesn't need only a world-premiere of a new technology, it needs to be THE king among sportscars again. When the 993 Turbo showed up with 4WD and a 408 HP bi-turbo charged engine, the competition was shocked. None of them had something similar to offer, especially not in that price range. Shortly after, the 430 HP and 450 HP powerkits came and manufacturer like Ferrari and Lamborghini were really shocked again, the 993 Turbo "destroyed" the competition performance-wise, making supersportscars like the Ferrari F40 or Lamborghini Diablo look like toys and no real sportscars. For many years to come, the 993 Turbo ruled many race tracks and it earned itself a lot of respect among all sportscar enthusiasts.
When the 996 Turbo showed up, many people were at first happy that Porsche had finally a 911 Turbo again. After the financial desaster at Porsche and the introduction of the Boxster, many people weren't even sure that there will be a 911 again. The 996 Turbo made it's way too but the little difference in power and performance weren't a real competition for the older 993 Turbo, making a lot of 993 Turbo owners wait with changing their cars. With the introduction of the 996 Turbo S, things changed slightly but the 993 Turbo is still remembered as THE 911 Turbo, a real breakthrough in technology and performance by that time.

That said, the 997 Turbo must be the same breakthrough, Porsche owes this to us loyal enthusiasts. Porsche had enough time to develop a superior product, to refine the 911 Turbo and to create a real performance monster.
If Porsche doesn't listen to stories like mine, they are fools. Emotions sell such cars, not dealer talk or advertisement. Stories like mine sell such cars and help to put them on the street. People talk, people talk about dreams and desires. Who gives a crap of what a salesman at the dealer tries to tell you about leather colour choices and heated seats. I want to feel something special when I spend a fortune on such a car, I don't need somebody trying to sell me a vacuum cleaner.

If you listen, Porsche, have courage: the 997 Turbo doesn't need to have only a few horses more than the 996 Turbo.
Be curageous, forget about marketing, give us a 997 Turbo monster which will shock the competition again for the next five years. This would be the best advertisement ever, no need for stupid ads in magazines.

How do I picture myself the PERFECT 997 Turbo? Simple:
520 HP.
Same weight as 996 Turbo.
Shorter gear ratio (top speed not that important).
Top Speed: 320 kph (should be enough).
0-100 kph: 3.8 seconds
0-200 kph: 11.5 seconds
0-300 kph: 28 seconds
Nordschleife: under 7 min 50 sec
Hockenheim Kleiner Ring: under 1 min 12.5 sec
(street tires)

If you don't offer this 997 Turbo, people will be disappointed. Other options will open up, the 911 Turbo "myth" will loose it's taste of sweetness.
It would be the worst marketing scheme ever.

Thanks for "listening".

Originally Posted by jrlcarrera

Idid put a deposit already although we do not know what the price will be yet...LOL.I dont mind since it seems these cars hold their value, especially when they are Maxed out in factory options.
:

Originally Posted by Luwalira

drronh: Well it's not suprising that some 996TTs are dusting in dealerships. A brand new model, the 997 is allready out which makes the old one less desirable and now they the 997TT is around the corner the 996TTs lose alot of their value. On the other hand the 993TT has been able to hold it's value pretty good but that's becasue it's a loved enthusiast car. You do have a point with Porsche producing too many cars but hey they want to survive. Although they produced too many CGTs and more or less anyone in the US can get their hand on one within a few days.
In general Porsche cars hold their value very good especially if you compare with AMG cars and such which drastically lose their value the first year.

Originally Posted by jrlcarrera

Ferrari holds value if you keep them under 5,000 miles forever, you have to keep them for a looooong time in order to make money.