German Car Forum

And the first review is up.

BMW 5-series GT 530d - Road Test First Drive - Autocar.co.uk

They love it.

This is interesting, I didn't know this:


So the F10 5er sedan is pretty much a completely different car from 5er GT as far as suspension goes. 5er sedan and Touring always have their own individual suspension system (something that I believe was the cause of great troubles for the E61 M5 Touring development).
So basicly, 5er GT is more a 7er hybrid than 5er hybrid. It shares the same wheelbase and front suspension....

Great review!

Btw, can somebody please move all post concerning first drive review in a new dedicated thread eg. "5-series GT: first drives & reviews".

A Whole New Road to Tiptoe for BMW

Remember a few years ago when we were trying to figure out the crossover? We just couldn't get the idea of a sort-of car on a car chassis but tall almost like an SUV. Now crossovers are everywhere, and their sales appeal has saved not a few car companies.

Our newest challenge in vehicular innovation is the "coupelike" sedan that sits somewhere between a four-door and a crossover. We've just now effortlessly egressed from the tall 2010 BMW 5 Series GT in Portugal after driving many, many miles, and our mind is swimming with what this all means. Making its public debut at the 2009 Frankfurt Auto Show this month, the 5 Gran Turismo is not quite as shocking a product moment as the Porsche Panamera, but it is an entirely new test for the Bimmer faithful.

Does it drive like an Ultimate Driving Machine? We cannot wholeheartedly say yes. Does it drive like a 2006 Pontiac Montana? Absolutely not.

The 2010 BMW 5 GT has a lot going for it, but it's most likely going to take a massively innovative marketing effort to convince BMW aficionados in key markets (read: North America) that it is worthy of the Bavarian roundel, and to persuade people new to BMW that it is worth the premium swan dive into larger monthly payments in these uncertain times.

Here's Your Brief
What BMW bosses handed their designers to tackle back in late 2005 was the company's first vehicle meant to cater blatantly to upper-middle-class family life. But it couldn't be too blatantly a family carrier or the minivan thing would soon scare away the all-important image-conscious orthodontists and corporate managers. And thus started the usual design challenge, as all the cooks in the kitchen tell one another that it needs to be a little bit this and a little bit that, ad infinitum. The risk of turning such a notion into something that means nothing in particular to anyone must have loomed large.

First, the 5 GT is not a 5 Series at all, really. The wheelbase and both track widths are identical to those of the new 7 Series, with which it shares the really good F01 modular chassis that has been created for use with the next 5 and 6 Series as well as the new 7 Series.

Since the GT is 4.3 inches taller than the current-generation 535i sport wagon (and 3.5 inches squatter than the X6), the ease of entry and exit is right on with the design brief — the height is perfect for the everyday. Regarding interior space, the 5 GT is pure genius and we could easily see ourselves driving it cross-country nonstop if the fuel tank held 200 gallons of unleaded and there were a port-a-john aboard. It's particularly spacious in the rear, offering the legroom of a 7 Series and the headroom of an X5.

Looking Good?
Here's where we hesitate. Looking at every single current BMW model up until today, we can say without hesitation that they are all justifiably sexy and/or handsome.

If anyone looks straight on at the rear end of the BMW 5 GT and uses the adjective "sexy" or "handsome," then we must have changed planets. We can deal pretty easily with the 5 GT from a few angles, but the full-on rear view is just not pleasing to the eye.

BMW Group design head Adrian von Hooydonk, along with design leader of the BMW brand Anders Warming, will have several weeks' worth of heated explaining ahead of them. (We can hear former BMW design director Chris Bangle calling out from his grappa farm even now, "Welcome to my world, boys!") Both of these design talents were present in Portugal for our early drive and it was clear that they were aware that this robust discussion was soon to begin.


Full Story: Edmunds Inside Line - 2010 BMW 5 Series GT First Drive


I think I can honestly say that this BMW looks better and better every time it is photographed, and I bet it will look great in person. Darker to medium colors and better wheels will do the trick, though I still think this is one BMW/vehicle too many. A solution to a niche that doesn't exist. We shall see.


M

It's funny to know that the 5er GT isn't a 5er at all, but more of a 7er hybrid with F10 5er Touring back suspension....

Perhaps US journalists & customers think about some certain BMW products from US-perspective too much.
Eg. by which 1er hatch, X1, 5er GT, even X3 & X6 seem weird & redundant. Not to mention the Touring models.
BUT ... BMW makes global products. And while still US is the biggest BMW market, they have to also cater other tastes in other markets as well (Europe, Asia, ME etc).




So, not everything that doesn't attract US market is redundant & iffy. Such claims could be very easily labeled as ignorant.


Eg. X6 is exceeding BMW plans (max. 35k units per year sold worldwide - when full model line is revealed) - since the car is selling like hot cakes. 20k cars were sold in 2009 (worldwide) till the end of the June - in the middle of global recession!!! Yet the car isn't as popular as expected in home US market - where sales lag behind the plans. But when economy picks up, be sure the numbers will be better.

Or eg. 5er wagon - very popular model in Europe, while sales in US are marginal.

Perhaps same case will be with 5er GT & X1 - I'm sure US sales won't be huge, but the cars will be global success nonetheless.

The niche does exist ... And with such niche weird crossovers (X6, 5er GT) BMW boosts its image: being an innovative brand, offering very lifestyle oriented powerful vehicles. For broader tastes.


******

Btw I find this article by Edmunds funny. Why?

The journalist says:

And few lines above he offers an answer himself ...


So, yes ... form follows function. It's impossible for a large SUV-spacious vehicle with elevated driving position to end up being as low & sleek as eg. 5dr/4dr sportsCoupes like CLS, Panamera, A5 or A7 ...

Since the function, nature & intent of the vehicle is completely different.

So, 1,56m tall car just can't have a low rear hatch end - unless you make the car like 6m long, with 4m long wheelbase. Especially when the aim is the hatch is very practical.

Eg. Panamera's height: 1,42m ; A5 SB: 1,39m ; A7 SB: 1,40m


That speaks for the journalist complete ignorance & lack of knowledge in engineering field. Nor he does understand the point of marketing: if the brief is to design & develop spacious & high-sitting vehicle (hatch) such car just CAN'T posses sexiness of classic low&sleek a sportscar.

And when BMW designers, managers & engineers will explain that to the journalists, some will still go : "Oh, what a PR / marketing BS! They are just unable to design a beautiful car. Look at A5 or A7."

I hope they will go silent when 6er GT is introduced ...

Not good looking, not driving like a BMW, but practical and comfortable. I guess you can't please them all...

That what I said in my impressions posted a few months back. It's a car with very grand dimensions. Even the X6 appears small in comparison. Think R-Class with a more slender shape.

I wouldn't listen comments from US journalists on hatch designs - since we all know - US market has some issue with hatch design, especially in premium segment.

Eg. European journalists (and especially customers) are much more pleased with the design - since hatch is much more popular in Europe.

Not driving like BMW ... As mentioned by many - this car has VERY soft setting option (Comfort setting), and also very hard one (Sport+) - the other two are much better.

Sure this car doesn't drive like regular BMW sedan - since it isn't a regular sedan. But nor does the BMW SUV. And nor does SACoupe drive like regular BMW coupe. But that doesn't mean the car does not posses that typical BMW driving feeling.

Also: 5er GT (just like X5) has suspension settings fitted to the car being fully loaded ... Although X5 is a bit heavier (more absolute weight also on rear axle), and also less jumpy when not fully loaded.

While 5er GT drives best when loaded with passengers & luggage - since the care is made for that in the first place ... Although the ride in not loaded car is also very good - but you have to set the suspension right. Some "journalists" still don't know that on certain roads one mode works better than other, and on other some other mode is better -and some experimental work has to be done by the driver to find the best choice for a certain road. Sure in few hours that's impossible to find out - therefore such articles are called "first impressions" for a reason.

Thanks EnI.

We all remember the initial reviews of the E92 M3, the horrid venting of spleen... and what happened a couple of weeks down the line?

Regarding the drive; no, it will never drive like a typical BMW, but it will drive in a very untypical MPV manner. That can only be a good thing.

I found with the US journalists is that they hated this car before they entered The press base, other journalists were more open to wait and see how it drives as evident in the other test drive posts.
Before coming to their conclusions. But you cannot come to a test drive with your primary aim to despise the car because you are not objective.

But as Eni mentioned we are a global car company aimed at providing global solutions. In order for Americans to embrace Euro concepts such as the 1er hatchback and the GT series then they have to conform. It's all well to read a few forum comments regarding four cylinders , diesels and hatchbacks but they do not show the demand as the hate and fail posts outnumber these and the media join in. BMW cannot justify the costs to federalize these cars if they are going to sell only a handful.

The 1-series would be perfect for the US market, they just dont understand it, yet. But soone enough, there will be legislation demanding a cut in consumption (combined with a 100% rise of the price for gas) and that is when this type of car will be very much sought after.

This is of course just me speculation, but I do not think I'm that far off...

Scott, Eni Autocar also mentioned the gearbox being brilliant and I can understand BMW not going fulltime into DCT and opting for auto trannies rather, however i heard a rumour of BMW developing a new type of gearbox. Any truth to this?

What nonsense. Why on earth would U.S. customers think about a product from any other perspective other than how it fits into the U.S. market? Americans are ignorant because they only crave 3,5,6,7,X5,Z4 BMWs? It is just this type of thinking that makes people not want a BMW.

The 1-Series is not only ugly, but its over priced. The savings vs the 3-Series is precious little in most cases. The X6 is pricey and takes away the main reason most people buy an SUV, cargo room. No wonder it doesn't sell. BMW should be trying to cater to the U.S. market with a product that upholds the BMW tradition while meeting the needs and tastes of U.S. buyers, not forcing some ill-suited, over-marketed, answer to a question no one asked, at times goofy/ugly looking product down their throats.

Such arrogance.

Between the X3, X5, X6 and 5 Touring there really isn't much of a "need" for this 5GT. At least not any beyond the marketing skunkworks at BMW.

Are Europeans "ignorant" because they don't see the point of U.S. pickups, big V8 pony cars, and super size SUVs? No of course not. Those productions just don't fit their needs.


M

Sure customers think only about their needs. But the problem are the journalists - who should have be more open-minded, seeing a broader picture.

You don't see many Euro customers (eg. via forums) bitching about such types of vehicles ... despite being sold in Europe, although in small numbers. Some people need / want them. It's a niche in Europe, and respected as such. The problem is when such product is marketed in a way wanting to cater the mass taste (which can not be done in all the markets).

While eg. US press is usually very narrow-minded - not even understanding the niche products. Like everything should cater to the mass, and sell in 5 digit numbers per month.

I remember US press bitching about MINI - when it was introduced to US market. And even many customers were on that wagon. Too small for US, too expensive for its size, small size = not safety etc

And many other similar cases ... Very narrow-minded reactions.


******

Global companies offering global products don't care JUST & ONLY about a certain market, but about all global markets they are present in ... Sure there is some missed opportunity to sell more - if the product would be more specific-market oriented, but in such case sales in other markets could hurt.

Therefore some US brands (or Japanese luxury brands as well) have problem being successful worldwide since their products do not fit well to global average. Same case with eg. some Euro brands - which can't succeed in US & Asia due not having proper products (globally accepted products) in portfolio.

So, either a company offers globally attractive products, or offer specific products to specific markets (based on geographic or demographic factors).

It's all about understanding (the marketing) ...

And calling particular (globally distributed) product "a BS" just because it's just a (perhaps even marginal) niche in your domestic market (but successful elsewhere) ... sorry , yes, that's ignorant. Knowing nothing about marketing- about the brief & purpose behind the product, and the demographics it targets.

Have you ever seen me eg. calling US V8 muscle cars stupid? Or Hammer, or Ford pick-ups, GMC SUVs / vans, or any of Infiniti or Lexus product? No. I only had comments when a certain brand wanted to repeat a mass success from US market in other markets as well - with a product specific for US market. Since that's a no go usually - therefore such products have ended up being a niche products out of US market.

I feel sorry for some (not only US ones ... there are idiots elsewhere as well) journalists since there will be more & more niche (cross-over) models in the future ... So, a lot of products they will not understand ... And I can imagine all the whining where the car industry is steering with such BS products ... Which is very ironic - since automotive journalists should be the ones with best insight in the industry - understanding it, and understanding the future trends etc. Yet today it seems those "journalists" are nothing but ego-driven car bimbos (most of them, not all of them! There still are some very good journalists who know about the stuff they write about. But they are rare, and becoming even rarer.)

All going Paris way ... "Paris , are you afraid of swine flue?" "No, I have nothing to worry about. I don't eat pork." Shallow, ignorant, stupid, fake-flashy (form over content).

And again: if you don't need it or understand it - that DOES NOT automatically men the product is stupid & redundant. Since there are some people out there who want such exactly such a product.

And different people see different things being stupid & redundant: eg. I have allergy on supercars.

Who is "bitching" about the 5GT? All I (and others) are doing is wondering out loud or questioning the purpose of such a vehicle. Simple as that. Period.

You most certainly do see European journalist "bitching" about U.S. home grown products and questioning the need for them. I can't believe you're going to say that they don't.

I don't read European forums so really......matterless.

The U.S. is full of niche products that sell well and that are coveted by their buyers, and they don't sell in the 5K range per month


And for BMW to launch a product with little or no market relevance in a particular market is ignorant as hell also. When and if a product flops, who is it that knows nothing about "marketing- about the brief & purpose behind the product, and the demographics it targets" then? BMW or the buyer? Of course the buyer is clueless because you're inherent bias won't allow you admit BMW might be capable making a mistake.

Is the X6 not selling well here because of American ignorance or because the product is ill-suited to American tastes and expectations? An expensive SUV that focuses on driving pleasure, but has a tight back seat and can't haul much like other similar SUVs? Did BMW just make an ignorant mistake or are Americans just too dumb to spend 60-95K on a SUV which can't haul much and performs best at speeds and doing manuvers that most Americans can't do legally?


And the European press isn't? Due you have got to be joking. They constantly derided and question the mere being of certain American products. They think everything has to prove its metal on a track and so on, that is just as narrow minded as any American journalists are.


M

That is because they are journalists - paid to express their personal view on things they do not understand.

We have the exact same problem with European journalists, most of the time they are, however, not questioning the concept of American vehicles (as we do not get the models here that would have triggered such reactions) but rather the Pavlovian conditioned statements of poor handling, silly interior quality and engines with the refinement of a stone mill...

Do you never sleep, or what? Always present ...



As said many times: and again ... the purpose has been explaind. If you (or even a majority) don't need such a car that does not mean it has no purpose in general. Today people like cross-over cars that are jacks-of-all-trade-masters-of-none. And usually such cars are niche. Does a supercar have a purpose to the mass market / majority of customers? No. But it has to some. It's a niche. What's the point questioning the purpose of a niche, of you're not a part of it? Absolutely none.




Time will tell. BMW see no big market for 5er GT in US. But they will still offer the car there. Just like eg. they did with 5er Touring. They have nothing to lose. It will be there - for the few who need it & will buy it. No mass market ambitions though - eg. like MB ones with R-class in US market.

So, would it be better not inviting US press to the first drives?



X6 sells less in US since BMW US sales in general suffers a lot. Sales ratio X5 vs X6 is according to plans. While in other markets this ratio exceeds plans: X& being much closer to X5 sales numbers than expected. In some small markets X6 even outsells X5!!!! Btw, beside ME the US market offers lowest prices for X6. Anywhere else the car is even more expensive.

And eg. 6er sells even less ... Does that mean it's a flop? No, since a niche product - a large GT coupe / cabrio with limited market potential. And so it is the X6. It's not a mass product like X5. Never will be. So don't expect the car will sell in X5 numbers ... and calling it a flop when seeing it's not reaching X5 sales numbers at all. Since that has never been the aim.

Why eg. R-class is considered to be a flop? Due to wrong marketing - since MB advertise it as "an alternative to SUV", and expecting big sales numbers, wanting the car to be mainstream mass product like eg. ML. And that has never happened. Flop = huge margin between expectations and reality. Not the sales numbers per se. If you launch a car (and generating profits) as a niche product - selling it in small numbers, that shouldn't be considered as flop. Unless a person is completely ignorant, knowing nothing about marketing.

It is. But not in marketing kind of way. The narrow-minded attitude more derives from patriotism: favoring their own domestic brands. eg. Germans favoring German brands over any other, Brits favoring British brands, Italian Italian brands, French the French brands etc.

Yet still automotive press in average has become a joke ... Globally. Completely tabloid-like. Following the trend in the media world. Sensational yellow-press is selling well ... And the content & form has to cater the intelligence & mindset of the readers. It's certainly not the NYT audience - like.

Today automotive forums & blogs & news portals offer much more insight than average automotive magazine.

Some automotive "journalists" & media act laike Gods of Automotive world - pretending they know everything, and pretend to being entitled to say anything (that being a praise or criticism) ... although they usually do that with no or too little info / insight ... and therefore they often make fools of themselves. And their readers do it even more - believing in everything they read in such magazines / papers etc.

I was a part of automotive marketing machine once (for a short period), and I know how difficult is to present info to media - since today not many journalists understand the complexity of marketing (eg. why some product is offered, how it is offered, how it is priced, to whom it is offered, how it is communicated etc). They usually go "I don't understand it ... I don't understand it. It doesn't make sense to me." Usually showing their complete lack of empathy - not understanding what someone else wants / needs. Since they usually only use rationality as a base for explanation. But today purchasing process is not only based on customer's rationality, but it's more based on emotional (irrational) base as well - even more so in premium / luxury segments. And not many people understand emotional base of other people. Therefore eg. journalists do not understand some products ... Since today products are not only targeting the rational part of consumer's mental process, but also (sometimes even mostly) his / her emotional part.

And therefore it's hard to judge some products today ... since many people can only understand & judge the rational character of the product, but not necessary the emotional part (if you're not the targeted demographics). In some cases the marketing for a particular product is so specific & precise, it's hard for the general public to understand it. In such case only targeted demographics will be able to do it.

So, when I read the articles in papers saying "Product A is ugly / not sexy / visually challenging" or "It has no purpose. / It's redundant. / Hard to understand" - it only shows the stupidity of the writer. Unless he / she clearly specifies those are his / her PERSONAL & SUBJECTIVE feelings & views only! But even in this case ... articles should be writen for audience, for the writer himself ... who T. F. wants to read about personal feelings of the author??? It's not his blog / diary. Yet today many articles are so ego-driven it hurts.

Again, and again, who said the car has no purpose? The so-called purpose is what is being questioned. A supercar's purpose is understood from the moment it is shown so thats a very poor, actually invalid example. The 5GT is trying to create a niche, big difference. Supercar niche has been around for years and years.


And again, they question why bother? I can see it now, if the 5GT sells 4K units it will be deemed a success.



Keep believeing that. X6 doesn't sell because it is an aquired taste at best and defeats the purpose of having a SUV, and its damn expensive.


The 6-Series had its day in the sun it is now old and you know it.




True about the R-Class, but the thing is with you and BMW's marketing nonsense you're going to brand the 5GT a success no matter how few units it sells, is the BS factor. The projected number is what 5K? If it does 1K will that be considered a flop or failure? No of course not, yet another excuse will be given.

M

Whew...that was a lot of nothing EnI. The bottom line is this, you and the like cheer the press when they champion a BMW product and call them idiots when they don't. Period.

Writers are human so of course they're going to give their personal/subjective feeling on an automobile, what do you expect them to do behave blindly like you marketing people do?

What is so two-faced and hypocritical about your argument is that you say the writers don't care what people's needs are yet, yet when a BMW is praised for being sportier, better handling in tests that most drivers will never do, you're all cheers. Talk about being ignorant to everyday concerns.

In short what you're saying is that we should listen to you and BMW's CM instead of the press? Or should we listen to all sources and form our own opinions, as most people do anyway?

I don't know what you're reading but American magazines sure as hell didn't favor American products over Europeans ones. That is absurd. Secondly they most certainly do point out that what they say is their opinion, not some type of biblical information that can't be questioned. In your world no journalist would ever question anything BMW does or sells here and we'd all be BMW-loving zombies what worship any and everything BMW does. Thank god it isn't that way.

How else would the public know how a car performs? The often times meaningless figures from the manufacturer? Who or where does one turn to see an honest comparision of competing vehicles? The press material from BMW?


M

Marcus, I can't help you if your unable to understand. Live on your simple life ...

We had several debates, and every time we end up at the same point: you starting to call my arguments a CM / PR BS, excuses etc.





I don't know why you have an idea planted in your head that everything marketing / PR says is just an empty & useless propaganda.

Some traumatic experience in the past?

Like most arguments, the true reality probably lies somewhere in between the opposing viewpoints.

ENI, you do talk a bit more CM/PR BS than you realise.

Same thing as before, I'm too simple and ignorant to understand, yet I get it perfectly. You simply can't deal in reality. You'll talking that marketing crap until hell freezes over and it won't mean a hill of beans when a product fails and the sad, really sad part about it is that you'll never, ever admit that BMW or CM made a mistake. You'll just revert back to the same old "people or Americans are too stupid/simple to understand what BMW is doing or what the point something like the 5GT is".


Because 9 times out of 10 that is exactly what you give. Useless BS and then on top of that you have the gall to say Americans are so stupid/ignorant etc. yet you expect them to buy BMWs. BMW USA better be glad you aren't anywhere near being in charge otherwise they'd be finished with this ridiculous, head in the sand way of thinking you have.

Buyers that don't like one of these new BMWs are clueless, nevermind that they understood BMW all these years, journalists know absolutely nothing ****unless they praise BMW**********, and the rest simply aren't worthy of buying a BMW or even understanding what one is.

The world according to EnI.

You telling me to "live my simple" life is your save-face, cop-out for your BS being called what it is.


M